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Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - Benito Mussolini - 05-23-2012
I've heard they've gained in popularity around the world (in NY, Paris, Russia...), with people protesting against the new law our government has passed. I'm not going into any details in here (not at the moment, I would gladly answer questions later) because I want to know how much people know outside my province, and what they think of the tuition fees hikes we may soon have.
Discuss. I kind of need it to regain faith in humanity right now.
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - CaffeinePowered - 05-23-2012
What I know from reading the internets and NPR, huge tuition hikes in a province which has usually provided free/highly subsidized higher education. And they aren't just little 5 -10% jumps, it would make higher education simply unaffordable for a lot of students or start saddling them with very large debt burdens.
So, students are protesting en mass, massively enough to shut down cities (or parts of them) and the colleges/universities themselves.
Some students are doing this peacefully, some students are being disruptive dicks
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - Hobospartan - 05-23-2012
Literally all I knew about the situation before I opened this topic was this picture.
![[Image: 581595_448455448504325_198279420188597_9...5483_n.jpg]](http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/p480x480/581595_448455448504325_198279420188597_99616516_1480235483_n.jpg)
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - Benito Mussolini - 05-23-2012
(05-23-2012, 10:27 PM)Höböspärtän link Wrote: Literally all I knew about the situation before I opened this topic was this picture.
This is awesome, but it was more against police brutality than the hikes. The situation escalated a lot.
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - Vlambo - 05-24-2012
Benito, it's a tough subject out here in Newfoundland. Some people (usually the activist types/Student Union people) are all for the students. But then there lies another group, a group in which my friends and I are in.
Do we agree with rising tuition hikes? No
Do we agree that having the hikes that suddenly is a good thing? No
Do we think Education should be free? No
Are we on the Students side? No, not 100%
Quebec pays I believe the lowest tuition in the country. MUN (My University) pays the lowest outside of Quebec. A lot of us feel its almost like equalization. Why should 1 part of the country pay less then the rest of us? If MUN decided to double tuition for the next few years, it would really fucking suck, but I'd have to power through. Higher Education isn't a right, we pay to go there, and that's how it works. If prices go up, plan accordingly, this shit ain't free (unlike what my Student U wants it to be).
I feel I went a bit off track there, but this is what it comes down to. We stand with the students who want affordable uni. education, but when you are talking about raising the prices to the average of the rest of Canada, how can we be in the protesters corner? Especially when there are incidents of people disturbing classes. We hope that a compromise is found, and every party leaves with something.
(I'm sorry if some of my information may be a bit off, I haven't researched this stuff since the start of the protests)
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - CaffeinePowered - 05-24-2012
(05-24-2012, 08:29 AM)Vlambo link Wrote: If prices go up, plan accordingly, this shit ain't free (unlike what my Student U wants it to be).
The problem is you can't plan for that large of a hike in the short term, if you told people "In 15 years we will steadily raise tuition, in the end from today's prices it will have doubled", this gives parents and children time to plan accordingly.
And places DO offer free higher education, all of the nordic countries + denmark(?) offer you free higher education or vocational school. If you want to go for a masters/PhD that's on you, but the base is paid for. And you do in a sense pay with higher taxes throughout your lifetime.
If Qubec wants to spend its money on free/subsidized tuition it can, in the US state school in California was actually free for quite some time, then budgeting priorities changed. If I were them I'd be afraid if they are willing to take that large of a hike, there's no way they are going to 'get it back' in the future even if the economy improves. The students would likely be more willing to pay a higher tax rate in order to keep that subsidized benefit.
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - Dtrain323i - 05-24-2012
(05-24-2012, 08:36 AM)Caffeine link Wrote: [quote author=Vlambo link=topic=6363.msg245977#msg245977 date=1337866146]
If prices go up, plan accordingly, this shit ain't free (unlike what my Student U wants it to be).
The problem is you can't plan for that large of a hike in the short term, if you told people "In 15 years we will steadily raise tuition, in the end from today's prices it will have doubled", this gives parents and children time to plan accordingly.
And places DO offer free higher education, all of the nordic countries + denmark(?) offer you free higher education or vocational school. If you want to go for a masters/PhD that's on you, but the base is paid for. And you do in a sense pay with higher taxes throughout your lifetime.
If Qubec wants to spend its money on free/subsidized tuition it can, in the US state school in California was actually free for quite some time, then budgeting priorities changed. If I were them I'd be afraid if they are willing to take that large of a hike, there's no way they are going to 'get it back' in the future even if the economy improves. The students would likely be more willing to pay a higher tax rate in order to keep that subsidized benefit.
[/quote]
Problem there is that taxes aren't equal plus it hides the true cost. You can be getting totally fucked and you're not going to know it because it's "free". And since not everybody pays taxes you're not only paying for your own schooling, now you're paying for the guy next door too. And that isn't fair.
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - Duck, Duck, Goose - 05-24-2012
About time people do something in this godforsaken apathetic country. The people who pull that "Quebec pays the lowest tuition in the country, they have no right to complain" bullshit are useless sacks of crap that miss the point entirely and are too lazy to protest their own outrageous education fees in the first place.
Why does education, and absolute essential in life, cost tens of thousands of dollars per year and force people into the grand trap of debt? Right, because the system counts on your going into debt.
Imagine if we were smarter than that.
Fuck bankers.
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - matter11 - 05-24-2012
My school is considered cheap because it's state funded and it's tuition is almost half of the other schools in my area and the US. I'm paying literally 10x what Canadian students are paying so you'll have to excuse me rolling my eyes. I can't believe secondary education is that cheap up there but then again I would have to pay for medical attention if my mother didn't get insurance from work.
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - Duck, Duck, Goose - 05-24-2012
(05-24-2012, 11:04 AM)matter11 link Wrote: My school is considered cheap because it's state funded and it's tuition is almost half of the other schools in my area and the US. I'm paying literally 10x what Canadian students are paying so you'll have to excuse me rolling my eyes. I can't believe secondary education is that cheap up there but then again I would have to pay for medical attention if my mother didn't get insurance from work.Welcome to society. It's why we pay tax. Too bad your government is busy abusing your tax dollars with silly defence contracts and restrictive copyright and censorship laws.
Imagine if people realized the significance of politics instead of decrying it as corrupt and useless.
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - Saxxy - 05-24-2012
I am reading wiki correctly when it says the increase is ~1.5K to the annual tuition over five years? what a joke.
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - zaneyard - 05-24-2012
this popped up on my youtube feed the other day
Song for the Students
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - cbre88x - 05-24-2012
(05-24-2012, 11:13 AM)Nitrous Oxide link Wrote: [quote author=matter11 link=topic=6363.msg245990#msg245990 date=1337875494]Welcome to society. It's why we pay tax. Too bad your government is busy abusing your tax dollars with silly defense contracts and restrictive copyright and censorship laws.
My school is considered cheap because it's state funded and it's tuition is almost half of the other schools in my area and the US. I'm paying literally 10x what Canadian students are paying so you'll have to excuse me rolling my eyes. I can't believe secondary education is that cheap up there but then again I would have to pay for medical attention if my mother didn't get insurance from work.
Imagine if people realized the significance of politics instead of decrying it as corrupt and useless.
[/quote]
The ride here in America is pretty close to getting very bumpy.
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - Black Aspen - 05-24-2012
I have very mixed feelings on the Quebec tuition increases AND protests. I'm a lower-middle-class graduate of an Ontario University, with student debt that I work hard to pay off. My long-time girlfriend is also that, but is also finishing up her 2nd year of her Master's degree at Concordia (university in Montreal). I've been in Montreal during a number of the protests, and have heard first-hand from a number of students, and local news agencies.
IMO, both sides are being stubborn, and have made mistakes in the whole process. I admire the protesters' (I specifically say "protesters" and not "students", because there are a lot of other factions, completely un-related to the students, that have morphed the movement for their own agendas) determination, but feel they are some-what "making a mountain out of a molehill" out of this, especially considering the province's financial situation (for those of you outside of Canada, Quebec has the highest provincial debt within the country, and receives the most federal support per capita of each of the provinces).
Just to give you guys a basis, here are the numbers that are being protested over:
The legislation asks for a tuition increase of $325/year over a five-year period. This will raise the annual TOTAL tuition price tag of a fulltime Quebec student to $3,793, up from the ~$2,415. After the increase, Quebec would still have the lowest annual tuition costs in Canada.
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - Didzo - 05-24-2012
(05-24-2012, 01:24 PM)Black Aspen link Wrote: The legislation asks for a tuition increase of $325/year over a five-year period. This will raise the annual TOTAL tuition price tag of a fulltime Quebec student to $3,793, up from the ~$2,415. After the increase, Quebec would still have the lowest annual tuition costs in Canada.
Yeah, it is a 57% increase, but it's over 5 years and it still seems like a great deal compared to the price of education elsewhere...
But I can't say I can speak from the perspective of Canada, Quebec, or the students there.
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - Chief - 05-24-2012
(05-24-2012, 01:24 PM)Black Aspen link Wrote: I have very mixed feelings on the Quebec tuition increases AND protests. I'm a lower-middle-class graduate of an Ontario University, with student debt that I work hard to pay off. My long-time girlfriend is also that, but is also finishing up her 2nd year of her Master's degree at Concordia (university in Montreal). I've been in Montreal during a number of the protests, and have heard first-hand from a number of students, and local news agencies.it sure doesnt help the government side when the students (apparently) send this picture when they ask for a route of their march: http://i.imgur.com/tH9Kn.jpg
IMO, both sides are being stubborn, and have made mistakes in the whole process. I admire the protesters' (I specifically say "protesters" and not "students", because there are a lot of other factions, completely un-related to the students, that have morphed the movement for their own agendas) determination, but feel they are some-what "making a mountain out of a molehill" out of this, especially considering the province's financial situation (for those of you outside of Canada, Quebec has the highest provincial debt within the country, and receives the most federal support per capita of each of the provinces).
Just to give you guys a basis, here are the numbers that are being protested over:
The legislation asks for a tuition increase of $325/year over a five-year period. This will raise the annual TOTAL tuition price tag of a fulltime Quebec student to $3,793, up from the ~$2,415. After the increase, Quebec would still have the lowest annual tuition costs in Canada.
honestly i, like aspen, have mixed feelings as well. obviously its been said countless times before that quebecers pay the lowest tuition and will still do if the tuition increase goes through, so the majority of those outside are simply saying "toughen up, buttercup". but then again there are many many things going on in quebec that i cannot even begin to fathom, such as their government's apparent corruption, which may or may not play in its financial situation. and of course, putting inflation into play makes it all the more confusing. although, even if this said corruption were to be cleared up, im not exactly swayed to believe that even with that tuition cost they could remain fiscally responsible.
its tough to say because i honestly dont know the differences in taxes and stuff, as ive heard stuff such as a higher income tax being thrown around, but im obviously not willing to go and compare it to my own tuition costs and income and see how it balances out, and such. its especially hard to see myself going out and demanding changes that are morally sound, but could hurt in other aspects of business world stuff that practically makes the world turn... im just not enough of an expert on these types of subjects to truly have a stance here, but from what i have gathered, i would simply say to grin it and bear it now, but when the time is more 'right', per say, to bring these matters back into light and discuss it democratically. but once again, i just dont know enough, and thats why im so mixed
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - Benito Mussolini - 05-25-2012
OK, so what I understood here is that almost everyone uses that one argument that irks me a lot: Quebec already has the lowest tuition fees, and will still have after the hike, they have no reason to complain. Why don't people think that it's in their province / state that they are paying too much? People protesting here claim education is a right and that it has to be affordable to everyone, without risking to come out with thousands of dollars of debts.
Right now, universities here have as much money per students as in any other province in Canada, if I recall correctly. However, they are claiming that they need more money, so the government decided to raise the fees.
Students associations blame the government for rising the fees without examining the needs of our universities. Universities don't even have to show a clear budget at the moment. When asked how much money they really need and where it's going, they have no clear answer either. Over the last decades, the part going to administration (versus the one going to teaching and research) in universities has more than doubled. There are many examples of failed projects, and undeserved bonuses going to rectors, where money is completely wasted. Why should the students have to pay for that?
And the extra money that would be brought by raising the fees would only be a small portion of the budget that the government already has (don't forget we're the most taxed in North America). It's widely known that corruption is really common within our government, and that money is easily wasted. Quick example: news recently revealed that the government spent over 350k$ for 12 new showers in some offices, paying about 2.5k$ for curtains. Again, why should the students pay more when the money seems available.
Then, what started as protests against tuition fees hike went as protests against the government itself. It kept claiming that, since it has the majority of seats in the parliament, they can do whatever they want and that the population is behind them. Since there is definitely no place for that in democracy, people kept protesting harder (fellow Canadians: think of Harper and his budget against the environment that can be passed without any real opposition). Around 75% of the students were clearly against the hike, although only 30% were on strike. Still, the government kept going with its hike, even when 200 000 people went on the streets on March 22nd. They waited 12 weeks to make some small adjustment to their hikes, which every students really only took as an insult. Our prime minister even made offensive remarks, when defending its "North Plan" (which really is a stupid plan to give away our mining resources), claiming that he could find students on strike jobs, far in the north. On the 13th week, the government finally began negotiations, and the new plan was widely rejected by students because it lowered the fees by about 100$ / year, and no one was losing a whole semester for 100$/year.
The government is now losing control of the situation more and more. The education minister resigned. The government came out with the bill 78 (which is against some principles of democracy itself), which only made more illegal protests. Even the bar has claimed that the law was a bad idea. As anyone would have predicted, this only made things worse, leading to the largest act of civil disobedience in Canada ever (with 200 000 people protesting illegally on May 22nd).
TL;DR: I believe students in Quebec are the only one who understand something about democracy in North America.
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - A. Crow - 05-25-2012
my short answer is:
If someone is taking something away from you that you like/feel you deserve, fight for it, fight for it tooth and nail.
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - Benito Mussolini - 05-25-2012
And here to answer some of what you said:
(05-24-2012, 08:29 AM)Vlambo link Wrote: Quebec pays I believe the lowest tuition in the country. MUN (My University) pays the lowest outside of Quebec. A lot of us feel its almost like equalization. Why should 1 part of the country pay less then the rest of us? If MUN decided to double tuition for the next few years, it would really fucking suck, but I'd have to power through. Higher Education isn't a right, we pay to go there, and that's how it works. If prices go up, plan accordingly, this shit ain't free (unlike what my Student U wants it to be).
Higher education is a right. Why would anyone not be able to do what he wants with his life because he cannot afford it? How can people not see education like the basis of our humanity? Really, without our ability to learn, humans are only animals.
And, yes, no part of the country should pay less. Why are you still paying so much, tell me?
(05-24-2012, 11:04 AM)matter11 link Wrote: My school is considered cheap because it's state funded and it's tuition is almost half of the other schools in my area and the US. I'm paying literally 10x what Canadian students are paying so you'll have to excuse me rolling my eyes. I can't believe secondary education is that cheap up there but then again I would have to pay for medical attention if my mother didn't get insurance from work.
Secondary education is actually free here in public schools. That too is a basic right and should be affordable to everyone (just like being healthy is).
(05-24-2012, 11:18 AM)Saxxy link Wrote: I am reading wiki correctly when it says the increase is ~1.5K to the annual tuition over five years? what a joke.
You're a joke! 1.5k / year is a big deal. It's 3 more hours a week students have to work at minimum wage (3 more hours he cannot spend studying). If you cannot find any time to work (as I did, becoming an engineer is hard work), it's a total of 9k more debts.
(05-24-2012, 01:24 PM)Black Aspen link Wrote: IMO, both sides are being stubborn, and have made mistakes in the whole process. I admire the protesters' (I specifically say "protesters" and not "students", because there are a lot of other factions, completely un-related to the students, that have morphed the movement for their own agendas) determination, but feel they are some-what "making a mountain out of a molehill" out of this, especially considering the province's financial situation (for those of you outside of Canada, Quebec has the highest provincial debt within the country, and receives the most federal support per capita of each of the provinces).
Just to give you guys a basis, here are the numbers that are being protested over:
The legislation asks for a tuition increase of $325/year over a five-year period. This will raise the annual TOTAL tuition price tag of a fulltime Quebec student to $3,793, up from the ~$2,415. After the increase, Quebec would still have the lowest annual tuition costs in Canada.
Both sides have made mistakes, it's easy to see. However, it's easy to claim that the violence made by some students are isolated cases, but hard to say that waiting 12 weeks for the government to actually try and make some change is.
And let me end with something completely[glow=black,2,300] american [/glow]that might make you understand a bit more what we are going through:
![[Image: page2captainamerica.jpg]](http://captain-america.us/articles/images/civilwar/page2captainamerica.jpg)
Re: Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them? - HeK - 05-25-2012
(05-25-2012, 11:10 AM)Benito link Wrote: Higher education is a right.
No, it is not. That is why it is separated from standard education.
In fact, we are already experiencing problems from this line of thinking.