OMG

[copulatingduck]

pffft, stage 3 -1 can be owned by taking out the left sentry, then you are covered by the wall yo cap the point, you cna easily take out anything on the left with one uber, or a demo spamming shit through the window.

There were no sentries on the left. But 3 on the right, combined with a few heavy-medics holding uber make it impossible to ninja the point (you can't jump across the gap with 3 sentries pushing you back, spies are quickly cut down by heavy-medics once they start capping) and impossible for spies to do anything about the sentry farm. Everytime I've pug'd dustbowl on brb, *if* the offense managed to push through, it was by virtue of holding at least twice the number of ubers the defense had. Yes really.

Secondly, while I'm sure those are some of the fondest memories of most of the people that were there, that's not quite the situation I'm talking about. Imagine encountering that kind of defense, but now, instead of competent brbu-ers on your team (if you're offense), you have a bunch of random pubbers who don't have the coordination to win the relay race in the special olympics. Or alternatively, instead of having 3-4 people agreeing to go medic to uber through, you have 5-6 self-proclaimed "offensive engies" erecting sentries to protect your spawn. I never said the engineer ruined organized play (it makes it much more boring imho, but it doesn't ruin it) I said it ruins public play.

edit: From a competitive standpoint, the engy is still useless on anything but A/D and CTF maps, neither of which are played with any frequency anymore in most leagues. He doesn't have the mobility of any other class because his main weapon (his sentry) takes such a ridiculous investment in time and metal that the battle is already long gone when the engy is finally setup. For anyone to even begin to consider taking the engy more seriously in Linear CP maps, the engy class update needs to make the "offensive engy" a viable option, by reducing metal reqs and (like wedge said) reducing the erection time on buildables by a significant margin.

in before 'lol erection times'

edit x2: No dave, with 3 sentries, you *really* can't even come close to making it to the stairs. Really.

[Dave]

[quote author=Dave link=topic=1960.msg55507#msg55507 date=1229365590]
pffft, stage 3 -1 can be owned by taking out the left sentry, then you are covered by the wall yo cap the point, you cna easily take out anything on the left with one uber, or a demo spamming shit through the window.

There were no sentries on the left. But 3 on the right, combined with a few heavy-medics holding uber make it impossible to ninja the point (you can't jump across the gap with 3 sentries pushing you back, spies are quickly cut down by heavy-medics once they start capping) and impossible for spies to do anything about the sentry farm. Everytime I've pug'd dustbowl on brb, *if* the offense managed to push through, it was by virtue of holding at least twice the number of ubers the defense had. Yes really.

Secondly, while I'm sure those are some of the fondest memories of most of the people that were there, that's not quite the situation I'm talking about. Imagine encountering that kind of defense, but now, instead of competent brbu-ers on your team (if you're offense), you have a bunch of random pubbers who don't have the coordination to win the relay race in the special olympics. Or alternatively, instead of having 3-4 people agreeing to go medic to uber through, you have 5-6 self-proclaimed "offensive engies" erecting sentries to protect your spawn. I never said the engineer ruined organized play (it makes it much more boring imho, but it doesn't ruin it) I said it ruins public play.
[/quote]


you can run left up the stairs and not get touched by shit, then you hug left and jump over thr barrels, obviously you cant do this without soem cover, but you shouldnt be able to one man any point, especialy the second to last point.

[ktj]

If you put one sentry on the top of the stairs, in the corner, engy can repair it w/o taking damage from any direction.
While having 2 sentries on the right + hwmedi combos constantly shooting.
This can be pulled off unless there is a smart pyro protecting the sentry near the stairs.

[rumsfald]

Yeah and we've all been on special Olympic teams that have failed to cap point 1, stage 1 of dbowl. No argument. I just thought your characterization of "every brbu pickup stalling at stage 3, cap 1" was hyperbole. I agree that single choke point leaves less room for error, so if you are already playing with a team of Sloths, it will only get worse at that section.

[copulatingduck]

I was just trying to use it to illustrate my point that even organized teams will have problems attacking sentry farms in key chokepoints. Was hoping people would have been intelligent enough to picture the same sort of defense (tons of sentries at chokepoints) but with epic fail teammates. But I guess a lot of people in this thread like Baby Ruths, and would rather come up with "foolproof" methods of attacking this particular chokepoint than listening/understanding/acknowledging the point I was trying to make. . :'(

[cbre88x]

It's why I don't play in any old random ass pub. Teams will be stacked regardless, but there servers I play in have just as many restrictions/class limits as the BRBU servers.

[x]

Team Fortress 2 Update Released
December 15, 2008, 5:24 pm - Jason Ruymen

Updates to Team Fortress 2 have been released. The updates will be applied automatically when your Steam client is restarted. The specific changes include:

Team Fortress 2

    * Fixed overheal particle effect showing up incorrectly on disguised or cloaked spies
    * Changed the achievement tracker to only be available in Team Fortress 2
    * Added new teleporter sounds for upgrade levels 2 and 3
    * Fixed engineers being able to upgrade the bomb cart's dispenser found in Payload levels
    * Fixed bomb cart's dispenser being solid to players and projectiles

[Honest]

Team Fortress 2 Update Released
December 15, 2008, 5:24 pm - Jason Ruymen

Updates to Team Fortress 2 have been released. The updates will be applied automatically when your Steam client is restarted. The specific changes include:

Team Fortress 2

    * Fixed overheal particle effect showing up incorrectly on disguised or cloaked spies
    * Changed the achievement tracker to only be available in Team Fortress 2
    * Added new teleporter sounds for upgrade levels 2 and 3
    * Fixed engineers being able to upgrade the bomb cart's dispenser found in Payload levels
    * Fixed bomb cart's dispenser being solid to players and projectiles

Awww, no more catching idiot spys mid-cloak and getting called a hacker.

[Scary Womanizing Pig Mask]

Team Fortress 2 Update Released
December 15, 2008, 5:24 pm - Jason Ruymen

Updates to Team Fortress 2 have been released. The updates will be applied automatically when your Steam client is restarted. The specific changes include:

Team Fortress 2

    * Fixed overheal particle effect showing up incorrectly on disguised or cloaked spies[
    * Changed the achievement tracker to only be available in Team Fortress 2
    * Added new teleporter sounds for upgrade levels 2 and 3
    * Fixed engineers being able to upgrade the bomb cart's dispenser found in Payload levels
    * Fixed bomb cart's dispenser being solid to players and projectiles

Aww

[KarthXLR]

[quote author=Arnie's Right Bicep link=topic=1960.msg55772#msg55772 date=1229436653]

Team Fortress 2 Update Released
December 15, 2008, 5:24 pm - Jason Ruymen

Updates to Team Fortress 2 have been released. The updates will be applied automatically when your Steam client is restarted. The specific changes include:

Team Fortress 2

    * Fixed overheal particle effect showing up incorrectly on disguised or cloaked spies[
    * Changed the achievement tracker to only be available in Team Fortress 2
    * Added new teleporter sounds for upgrade levels 2 and 3
    * Fixed engineers being able to upgrade the bomb cart's dispenser found in Payload levels
    * Fixed bomb cart's dispenser being solid to players and projectiles

Aww

[/quote]
Don't worry pig mask, it's still broke.

[Blues]

I like how this thread, when presented with solid arguments as to why the new engi updates have broken public play, degrades from arguments that are semi-valid, to schematics of single instances of stairs and positioning and points that assume every player on a pub team is on the exact same wavelength and following a precise plan.

If you can't admit that having a medic on every player around a dispenser is broken.
If you can't admit that being able to blow stickies before they blow a sentry, even during an uber, is broken.
If you can't admit that unless one team has MUCH better teamwork than the other, sentry farms are going to break any match with a chokepoint (or even without one, as I was shown by 6 sentries on point A of gravelpit this morning)

You're a retard.

[Wedge]

I like how this thread, when presented with solid arguments as to why the new engi updates have broken public play, degrades from arguments that are semi-valid, to schematics of single instances of stairs and positioning and points that assume every player on a pub team is on the exact same wavelength and following a precise plan.

If you can't admit that having a medic on every player around a dispenser is broken.
If you can't admit that being able to blow stickies before they blow a sentry, even during an uber, is broken.
If you can't admit that unless one team has MUCH better teamwork than the other, sentry farms are going to break any match with a chokepoint (or even without one, as I was shown by 6 sentries on point A of gravelpit this morning)

You're a retard.

I don't even not understand what you aren't can't not trying to say.

[Dave]

[quote author=Blues link=topic=1960.msg55987#msg55987 date=1229501732]
I like how this thread, when presented with solid arguments as to why the new engi updates have broken public play, degrades from arguments that are semi-valid, to schematics of single instances of stairs and positioning and points that assume every player on a pub team is on the exact same wavelength and following a precise plan.

If you can't admit that having a medic on every player around a dispenser is broken.
If you can't admit that being able to blow stickies before they blow a sentry, even during an uber, is broken.
If you can't admit that unless one team has MUCH better teamwork than the other, sentry farms are going to break any match with a chokepoint (or even without one, as I was shown by 6 sentries on point A of gravelpit this morning)

You're a retard.

blues your a twat
[/quote]

yup

[KarthXLR]

[quote author=Wedge link=topic=1960.msg55997#msg55997 date=1229509600]
[quote author=Blues link=topic=1960.msg55987#msg55987 date=1229501732]
I like how this thread, when presented with solid arguments as to why the new engi updates have broken public play, degrades from arguments that are semi-valid, to schematics of single instances of stairs and positioning and points that assume every player on a pub team is on the exact same wavelength and following a precise plan.

If you can't admit that having a medic on every player around a dispenser is broken.
If you can't admit that being able to blow stickies before they blow a sentry, even during an uber, is broken.
If you can't admit that unless one team has MUCH better teamwork than the other, sentry farms are going to break any match with a chokepoint (or even without one, as I was shown by 6 sentries on point A of gravelpit this morning)

You're a retard.

blues your a twat
[/quote]

yup
[/quote]

[ScottyGrayskull]

[quote author=Wedge link=topic=1960.msg55997#msg55997 date=1229509600]
[quote author=Blues link=topic=1960.msg55987#msg55987 date=1229501732]
I like how this thread, when presented with solid arguments as to why the new engi updates have broken public play, degrades from arguments that are semi-valid, to schematics of single instances of stairs and positioning and points that assume every player on a pub team is on the exact same wavelength and following a precise plan.

If you can't admit that having a medic on every player around a dispenser is broken.
If you can't admit that being able to blow stickies before they blow a sentry, even during an uber, is broken.
If you can't admit that unless one team has MUCH better teamwork than the other, sentry farms are going to break any match with a chokepoint (or even without one, as I was shown by 6 sentries on point A of gravelpit this morning)

You're a retard.

blues your a twat
[/quote]

yup
[/quote]

[Radio Raheem]

If you can't admit that unless one team has MUCH better teamwork than the other, sentry farms are going to break any match with a chokepoint (or even without one, as I was shown by 6 sentries on point A of gravelpit this morning)

Someone got owned.

Still the main issue is the fact that offense takes teamwork where defense takes aimbots. Defense already usually has a terrain advantage and spawn advantage, not to mention stickys and spam. Why do sentries even need to exist again? Without them both teams would actually need a strategy and have to work together. As it is one teams trying to build ubers with maybe 3 intelligent people while retards charge into spam and the other team spams hallways and hits things with wrenches. I feel seriously ashamed every time I lose on defense (other than G Pit).

Although if people were smart enough to follow ubers this wouldn't be a problem. The guy getting all the sentry fire is invincible. Just stay behind him and shoot. The uber player doesn't need to do anything but block shots. Instead its 1 uber soldier/demo/whatever against 3 SGs.

[copulatingduck]

[quote author=Blues link=topic=1960.msg55987#msg55987 date=1229501732]

If you can't admit that unless one team has MUCH better teamwork than the other, sentry farms are going to break any match with a chokepoint (or even without one, as I was shown by 6 sentries on point A of gravelpit this morning)

Someone got owned.

Still the main issue is the fact that offense takes teamwork where defense takes aimbots. Defense already usually has a terrain advantage and spawn advantage, not to mention stickys and spam. Why do sentries even need to exist again? Without them both teams would actually need a strategy and have to work together. As it is one teams trying to build ubers with maybe 3 intelligent people while retards charge into spam and the other team spams hallways and hits things with wrenches. I feel seriously ashamed every time I lose on defense (other than G Pit).

Although if people were smart enough to follow ubers this wouldn't be a problem. The guy getting all the sentry fire is invincible. Just stay behind him and shoot. The uber player doesn't need to do anything but block shots. Instead its 1 uber soldier/demo/whatever against 3 SGs.
[/quote]

l2rj fool

shoutout to tgbf.tv for always making me feel better about myself =)

[Surf314]

[quote author=Blues link=topic=1960.msg55987#msg55987 date=1229501732]

If you can't admit that unless one team has MUCH better teamwork than the other, sentry farms are going to break any match with a chokepoint (or even without one, as I was shown by 6 sentries on point A of gravelpit this morning)

Someone got owned.

Still the main issue is the fact that offense takes teamwork where defense takes aimbots. Defense already usually has a terrain advantage and spawn advantage, not to mention stickys and spam. Why do sentries even need to exist again? Without them both teams would actually need a strategy and have to work together. As it is one teams trying to build ubers with maybe 3 intelligent people while retards charge into spam and the other team spams hallways and hits things with wrenches. I feel seriously ashamed every time I lose on defense (other than G Pit).

Although if people were smart enough to follow ubers this wouldn't be a problem. The guy getting all the sentry fire is invincible. Just stay behind him and shoot. The uber player doesn't need to do anything but block shots. Instead its 1 uber soldier/demo/whatever against 3 SGs.
[/quote]

Sentries always target the closest person.

[Radio Raheem]

[quote author=Radio Raheem link=topic=1960.msg56054#msg56054 date=1229534006]
[quote author=Blues link=topic=1960.msg55987#msg55987 date=1229501732]

If you can't admit that unless one team has MUCH better teamwork than the other, sentry farms are going to break any match with a chokepoint (or even without one, as I was shown by 6 sentries on point A of gravelpit this morning)

Someone got owned.

Still the main issue is the fact that offense takes teamwork where defense takes aimbots. Defense already usually has a terrain advantage and spawn advantage, not to mention stickys and spam. Why do sentries even need to exist again? Without them both teams would actually need a strategy and have to work together. As it is one teams trying to build ubers with maybe 3 intelligent people while retards charge into spam and the other team spams hallways and hits things with wrenches. I feel seriously ashamed every time I lose on defense (other than G Pit).

Although if people were smart enough to follow ubers this wouldn't be a problem. The guy getting all the sentry fire is invincible. Just stay behind him and shoot. The uber player doesn't need to do anything but block shots. Instead its 1 uber soldier/demo/whatever against 3 SGs.
[/quote]

Sentries always target the closest person.
[/quote]

therefor the uber runs in front and everyone else follows him.

[Surf314]

[quote author=Surf314 link=topic=1960.msg56057#msg56057 date=1229534265]
[quote author=Radio Raheem link=topic=1960.msg56054#msg56054 date=1229534006]
[quote author=Blues link=topic=1960.msg55987#msg55987 date=1229501732]

If you can't admit that unless one team has MUCH better teamwork than the other, sentry farms are going to break any match with a chokepoint (or even without one, as I was shown by 6 sentries on point A of gravelpit this morning)

Someone got owned.

Still the main issue is the fact that offense takes teamwork where defense takes aimbots. Defense already usually has a terrain advantage and spawn advantage, not to mention stickys and spam. Why do sentries even need to exist again? Without them both teams would actually need a strategy and have to work together. As it is one teams trying to build ubers with maybe 3 intelligent people while retards charge into spam and the other team spams hallways and hits things with wrenches. I feel seriously ashamed every time I lose on defense (other than G Pit).

Although if people were smart enough to follow ubers this wouldn't be a problem. The guy getting all the sentry fire is invincible. Just stay behind him and shoot. The uber player doesn't need to do anything but block shots. Instead its 1 uber soldier/demo/whatever against 3 SGs.
[/quote]

Sentries always target the closest person.
[/quote]

therefor the uber runs in front and everyone else follows him.
[/quote]

I concur.