Updates of the Week (ongoing discussion)

[Hobospartan]

[quote author=Hobospartan link=topic=206.msg149463#msg149463 date=1272510554]
Soldier hard countered by half the seasoned pyro players in the game


FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Fixed that for you.
[/quote]

http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Shotgun

[Radio Raheem]

soldier pretty much already was the worst pub class welcome to tf2

[Versus]

better keep tim at 300 retards

[[fr31ns]Karrde]

Wow.  Excluding the bugfixes, half those changes weren't needed.  Guess I'm gonna be playing more heavy and pyro than ever.  I'm realizing that a soldier with the buff banner is basically going to be 100% useless against any competent air blaster.  Also, wtf for pyro damage changes.  GL killing a demo with the shield - puff and sting now the only option.  Can't bitch about the capping of targe turn speeds.  Makes me sad I won't be able to run moronic circles though.  Making a direct charge hit do more damage is also prolly not a bad idea.  But wow, a few classes seem to be slowly getting relegated to the dustbin.  No complaints about heavy buffs though.  Very much needed if they want him to be useful at all w/o medic or if ppl are corner shooting him.

[backfire]

Yeah, one thing I could complain about the pyro changes is that it makes it almost too easy to reflect. For a while I was playing solly more and more. Even using a direct hit, I had two rockets reflected in my face. Puff and sting faliures are much more forgiving with the faster compression blast rate and lower fuel consumption. I just gave up on trying to make solly a main. It's downright annoying being killed by the same cheap tactics you've come to love as a pyro.

Thought, I as s scout, I can defiantly say I love the afterburn duration reduction. Hate being killed by afterburn because either I can't find a medkit or the local medic's too busy appreciating the arse of his beloved heavy to notice the dying scout crying out right behind him.

[Odin]

Yeah, one thing I could complain about the pyro changes is that it makes it almost too easy to reflect.

Have to agree, I was reflecting arrows tonight...

Me...

Reflecting arrows...

[KarthXLR]

this update owns

[Hobospartan]

Yeah, one thing I could complain about the pyro changes is that it makes it almost too easy to reflect. For a while I was playing solly more and more. Even using a direct hit, I had two rockets reflected in my face. Puff and sting faliures are much more forgiving with the faster compression blast rate and lower fuel consumption. I just gave up on trying to make solly a main. It's downright annoying being killed by the same cheap tactics you've come to love as a pyro.

I was actually doing pretty well as a soldier against pyros last night.  Granted I wasn't playing you, but I was able to trick most of them.  Shoot one rocket, let them reflect, dodge, switch to shotty, shoot once or twice, enough time for them to switch to shotgun too, then switch back to rocket launcher, and finish them.  Again, I'm not sure how well this would work against someone like you though.

[backfire]

oh, also. Late night/early morning thought.

Lower flamethrower DPS homewrecker now somewhat useful?




Also, story 'bout the homewrecker and how I killed some teliporters with it. Since engies can repair the entrances from the other side, as a scout, I got behind their lines and tried destroying their entrances. 2 full clips later, no dice. Red team came out to meet me, didn't end well. So, I went again, this time as pyro. Burnt them. Same story. So... I went AGAIN, this time with my mallet in hand. Two swings each took em out. I forced those RED bastards to actually WALK to their front lines all thanks to a hammer everyone* was so quick on dubbing "useless".



*including me

[CaffeinePowered]

After playing for a few hours last night, I have to say I think the heavy went a tad bit too far, movement speed or spin time, pick one but not both.

Pyro I think got both a large buff and a large nerf, there were several situations where I found myself dead where that 20% would have meant a kill for me instead. I've always said that the airblast should cycle more quickly, since a soldier could just out spam you. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they removed the minicrits and gave back some or all of that 20% in a later patch.


Edit:
I still got all the "reflect kill" awards last night (No Sticky / Flares were recorded)
1 Pipe
2 Rockets
1 Arrow

With all the pyros I'm a bit surprised someone else didn't get these instead of me...

[copulatingduck]

it makes it almost too easy to reflect.

FTFY

the changes to pyro are absolutely retarded. I can maybe get behind the minicrit buff, because I've always thought that if a pyro manages to reflect a couple rockets, even then he'll likely still die to a soldier which is kind of dumb. Get a couple reflects in, you deserve the kill. So buffing the reflect damage a little bit is fine, that's exactly what I've felt needed to be done. But then buffing the attack speed and ammo usage of the airblast is just stupid. It's to the point that any moron can just hold M2 when he runs into a soldier, and airblast 10 times while running away or charging. There was absolutely no reason to buff the speed and ammo usage.

What valve has ended up doing is nerfing the pyro as an all around class and buffing him as a purely anti-soldier/demo class. You don't want to design classes as straight-up counters, it makes them a lot less fun to play as you're diminishing that class's utility and relegating them to simply "airblast duty."  Somebody please tell Robin to get his dick out of his ass and use some common sense when these changes are coming down the line.

If you want to buff a class, that's fine. But don't hand down 3-4 buffs and think that it will be balanced at all. This reminds me of when they completely removed falloff damage to  the flamer, and I think doubled the dps? Playing tf2 felt like I was trying to play chess with a bunch of downies, it was absolutely miserable, but in TF2 the downies were winning because of how stupidly the flamer was.

Heavy already raped in pubs, the changes are going to turn him into a complete monster. But the changes were good because they make the heavy a little bit more viable for fulltime play in a comp setting. All the pyro really needed was minicrits to make him viable, this just makes him retarded and a no-brainer for defending last cps.

[Dtrain323i]

After playing for a few hours last night, I have to say I think the heavy went a tad bit too far, movement speed or spin time, pick one but not both.

Pyro I think got both a large buff and a large nerf, there were several situations where I found myself dead where that 20% would have meant a kill for me instead. I've always said that the airblast should cycle more quickly, since a soldier could just out spam you. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they removed the minicrits and gave back some or all of that 20% in a later patch.


Edit:
I still got all the "reflect kill" awards last night (No Sticky / Flares were recorded)
1 Pipe
2 Rockets
1 Arrow

With all the pyros I'm a bit surprised someone else didn't get these instead of me...

I got a like 2 rockets and an arrow last night. I also got another reflect arrow earlier in the day.

[CaffeinePowered]

But then buffing the attack speed and ammo usage of the airblast is just stupid. It's to the point that any moron can just hold M2 when he runs into a soldier, and airblast 10 times while running away or charging. There was absolutely no reason to buff the speed and ammo usage.

I agree that you shouldn't have "pure counters"...that lead to so many bad things in Planetside.....

However, just because you hold down M2 doesn't mean you are going to "auto win" against soldiers and demos, they only upped the number of puffs by 2, they eat 20 ammo instead of 25, so you can do 10 instead of 8, IMO this is fairly minor and it really doesn't matter either way.

The cycle time is more significant, but here's the thing...you still have to time it and you still have to aim. The speed it cycles has no bearing on the first rocket at all. Someone could run around herp durping M2, but you'll run out of ammo in about the same speed you did before since you cycle faster, but burn less ammo so its probably the same amount of time retreating.

The good thing is that at medium to short ranges you can no longer be out spamed by a soldier or a demo, even if you reflect the first rocket/pipe the second one is going to hit you in the face, and also bear in mind it should make both classes think a bit more, the the soldier delays every so slightly, the rocket will hit.

Stickies are still retardedly hard to throw back at the demo (and you can mini crit yourself with them!), or you could just use the shotgun, gunboats are going to RJ over you anyway, but this hits buff banner users the hardest since you have no alt weapon.

We'll probably see Valve change things again in 2 - 4 weeks after they analyze all the data servers kick back to them, +50 HP backburner lasted...what...a month about?

[Surf314]

"Last-weapon" initialization on respawn now sets itself to be the melee weapon if you don’t have a selectable secondary weapon (like The Razorback).

Fuck yes, I should now start playing this game again.

[Eightball]

I like the changes they made to the Targe; the fast turning really felt like an exploit to me--I'm almost certain doing that actually extended the range of the charge. I'm glad to see they're trying to make Bonk! more useful, but it's slow drinking time still makes it relatively useless in combat environments where one rocket will interrupt your drinking--it's still relegated to things like sentry baiting or tapping intels. The speed reduction on the Sandman is pretty nice too--it kinda reminds me of those halcyon days where some poor heavy would get stunned once and either get raped by a spy/sniper or get hit by several more balls. I haven't tested the huntsman changes, although I like the idea of being able to cock an arrow as you're airborne--makes it a bit more maneuverable than the sniper rifle, as it should. I think that it's nice that the heavy is being made a little more independent of other classes, although I think the Natascha needs refining now. If you encounter a Natascha-wielding heavy in an open environment and he catches you, he seems to move faster than you do. Good luck escaping.

Aaaand as for the major pyro changes:
I definitely agree that the ammo change was well deserved; a pyro doesn't deserve to be punished for 2 or 3 failed airblasts by having half of his ammo yoinked (however, this is going to make them a lot more irritating for ubercharges. However, the boosts to the airblast's effects (mini-crit, faster speed) I really don't think were necessary. Airblasting wasn't ever meant to be an easy feat; it was what set the experienced players apart from the green ones. The original speed also gave soldiers some handle on the pyro--if he unleashed all four rockets he would only expect the pyro to reflect two unless he's backpedaling. Gughg. But worst of all in this update is the flame reduction. Immediately after the pyro update, it seems as if Valve has been slowly trying to make flames obsolete. Almost every class has an unlock or tactic that can save them from death by burning. The scout can use Bonk to prolong his life. The soldier could use gunboats or the equalizer to reach health faster. The pyro can extinguish teammates. The demo has the targe. The heavy has the sandwich. The engineer, he's waiting for his pyroguard. The medic has higher heal rates with the syringe-gun. The sniper has Jarate. The spy can use the dead ringer to extinguish himself. Why is it that the pyro is becoming less and less useful for his flames?

[Kirby]

I like the changes they made to the Targe; the fast turning really felt like an exploit to me

But worst of all in this update is the flame reduction. Immediately after the pyro update, it seems as if Valve has been slowly trying to make flames obsolete.

Almost every class has an unlock or tactic that can save them from death by burning. The scout can use Bonk to prolong his life. The soldier could use gunboats or the equalizer to reach health faster. The pyro can extinguish teammates. The demo has the targe. The heavy has the sandwich. The engineer, he's waiting for his pyroguard. The medic has higher heal rates with the syringe-gun. The sniper has Jarate. The spy can use the dead ringer to extinguish himself. Why is it that the pyro is becoming less and less useful for his flames?

valve is trying to turn pyro into a purely defensive class IMHO. This is a *direct* buff to our ability to protect engineers from the worst things they cannot guard against themselves, I.E. spies trying to suicide sap rush, and solly/demo spam.

With a dispenser now, I could probably indefinitely defend a SG against any demo/demo, demo/solly or solly/solly (barring the 2x sollys properly timing their shots to be staggered)

It was only possible to defend against one of either indefinitely before, and against spies? forget it, I can man-handle you until the cows don't come home now.


Ubercharges? Forget it, they're fodder now. It was hard to manually throw a medic into the air without any assistance from explosions or knockback from teammates before... but with the new cycle speed, I can hit either the medic or the uber-target with successive airblasts before their feet touch the ground from the last airblast

[Surf314]

Every class is OP  >

[[fr31ns]Karrde]

Hmmm, haven't played yet, but if Caff and others are saying the Heavy kinda became too much of a manmower then it's proly true.  I'd be 100% happy with just altered spin times so I can get away from corner shooters.  Especially in those situations where it's LOL, spinning heavy *runs behind corner*

[Surf314]

It's the perfect heavy tweak because heavy was becoming outclassed. He has terrible accuracy due to the large spread which lowers his effective range but good players can runaway from a slow heavy and get out of his effective range. This speeds him up where he needs it most and is pretty fair.

[Kor]

Why is it that the pyro is becoming less and less useful for his flames?

Ever play TFC's Pyro? :p