BRBMGTSFAD '08 aka Get a Backburner or lose.

[HeK]

While I agree 100% with Kor's original post, I feel that the rules set in place at the start of the tournament should hold throughout the rest of the tournament, even through the KO rounds.

At least make the rules consistent, not change them halfway through.

2x, back burner is broken. But unless you would like to restart the tournament, rules shouldn't change halfway through.

[copulatingduck]

[quote author=ScottyGrayskull link=topic=917.msg23693#msg23693 date=1216695993]
[quote author=Kor link=topic=917.msg23644#msg23644 date=1216688406]
I'm moving to have tournament rules modified to disable unlockables so that this tournament is decided by the best team, and not the best pyro.

All unlockables for all classes? (of course just Pyro/Medic so far)

I never got around to getting any of the Pyro unlockables before my upgrade started, so I can't speak about them one way or the other.
[/quote]

The tournament is probably still going to be going on by the time the rumored Heavy update hits (unconfirmed) August 7th unless we cram-school it.  What happens if Heavy hits and the tourney's still going on?  We can't selectively turn off one class's unlockables and leave another's on, can we?  What if the Heavy introduces something as controversial as the Backburner?
[/quote]

BFG maybe?

[A. Crow]

le sigh....

btw, I'll be withdrawing from the tourney if the QQ keeps up, i'm here for fun, not to listen to all the god damned hate.

[1Trace1]

I completely agree with Kor, the backburner is overpowered and does not belong in a tourney with no crits. That being said we sorta need to recognize that we're brbu and this has never been a super serious tournament. No offense to Fatkids or anything but we played them without backburner while crow had his and we still won. The backburner is certainly worthy of all the QQ goin on but it's certainly not a a surefire way to win. I say for anything else we do that is even moderately serious no backburner or other unlocks, but for our friendly competition at hand (BRBMGTSFAD)  leave it as is. 

My 2 cents.

[Geoff]

I'm not your buddy, guy.

Well I'm not your guy, fwend. 

I'M NOT CHO FWEND, BUDDAY!                 

[A. Crow]

I'm gonna go over here --

You guys can have your pyro free tourney somewhere over there <---- and everyone can be happy again.  Cause I'm here to have fun and enjoy some time with comrades on teh internets, this is pretty much exclusive from becoming genuinely annoyed and angry with people complaining about how I prefer to play a class. 

You don't hear me complaining about stickies?  LOL I'll sticky a door and wait for someone to walk through, and then complain about someone else not having any skill with the way they play. It's a motherfucking game, if you're not enjoying yourself, you're doing it wrong. 

[A. Crow]

I mean, really, if it's like this now, it is going to get ugly when the tournament actually heats up, and I want no damn part of it.  I threw my hat in to have a good time, and I ended up on a team of randoms, and we didn't practice, we didn't plan, we just got together and played the damn game, and I thoroughly enjoyed myself the first game, and was greatly surprised we won.  And the Hate flowed.  Trace, it's a bit simplistic to try and throw our loss to your team in our face, seeing as we kicked your ass the first game, and were 30 seconds away from ending it in the second. Oh yes, for those of you who weren't at the game; Fatkids, the team of leftover players with a sub (seabreeze as a medic), was so close to going 2 and done against The Almighty Spore it must have been an act of God (sorry, read as: Backburner, because only haxoring or game imbalance could possibly allow Spore's team to almost lose, but it's ok, they have the moral victory because they didn't use the backburner).  And then you guys had the grace to complain the entire time you were winning the rest of the match.  I want no god damn part of it.  Not if this is what some shitty little tourney is going to make everyone hate everyone else.

[Spore]

I'm gonna go over here --

You guys can have your pyro free tourney somewhere over there <---- and everyone can be happy again.  Cause I'm here to have fun and enjoy some time with comrades on teh internets, this is pretty much exclusive from becoming genuinely annoyed and angry with people complaining about how I prefer to play a class. 

You don't hear me complaining about stickies?  LOL I'll sticky a door and wait for someone to walk through, and then complain about someone else not having any skill with the way they play. It's a motherfucking game, if you're not enjoying yourself, you're doing it wrong. 

If you aren't smart enough to recognize basic patterns like getting blown up when walking out of a certain door until it occurs for the fourth time you should be playing Halo or something. Now, what we DON'T need is a fast moving, heavy damage dealing class with tank like health that has crits in a non crit game to boot. If you don't want people to fight so much then you can just not use the thing everybody is arguing aboot.

[A. Crow]

If you aren't smart enough to recognize basic patterns

don't turn your back on a pyro.

[KarthXLR]

[quote author=Spore link=topic=917.msg23746#msg23746 date=1216707021]

If you aren't smart enough to recognize basic patterns

don't turn your back on a pyro.
[/quote]
Or else he'll crit you when crits are off. And kill you in a second or less. Totally fair.

[CaffeinePowered]

Crow, don't get your knickers all in a twist 

Before the tournament, it was agreed tf_weapon_criticals would equal 0 and everyone knew this going in. This will effectively disable the kritskreig and axstinguisher and all other "crits" except spy backstabs/sniper headshots. Why it works on all '100% crit' weapons except the back burner I don't know, but if it doesn't it should be disallowed for the purpose of the 4v4 tournament.

No matter how unserious any semi-competition is, there are still rules to be followed regardless. Want to blame anyone, blame valve for not making the cvar work properly.

Maybe a compromise could be prior to the match captains must agree to use the backburner, if one disagrees, you don't use it. Simple as that.

[A. Crow]

[quote author=A. Crow link=topic=917.msg23747#msg23747 date=1216707106]
[quote author=Spore link=topic=917.msg23746#msg23746 date=1216707021]

If you aren't smart enough to recognize basic patterns

don't turn your back on a pyro.
[/quote]
Or else he'll crit you when crits are off. And kill you in a second or less. Totally fair.
[/quote]

how's it any different than showing your back to a spy in a no crit game? (don't start raging here, read the whole thing, cause this is by far not my main point)

This is also away from my original point of highlighting the hypocrisy of camping a doorway with stickies which takes about as much skill as beating off correctly, and then saying the backburner takes no skill.  At least the pyro has to press the forward button at the same time as the mouse button.  Really my main goal there was to complain about the hypocrisy, I shouldn't have let spore goad me off topic about it.

No caff, it's not an issue, because I'm out, why, because it is getting my knickers in a twist that people are blatantly calling me either A) unskilled or B) a cheater.  And no, Valve are the last people I would blame here, as out of all the game design companies out there, I trust them the most to get their shit straight.

You all seem to forget the pyro got buffed at the same time he got his shiny new toy, it was a buff he needed, there is a now a very compelling trade off when you use the backburner versus the regular flame thrower.  I've played full rounds with both for comparison, and they both have very strong arguments.  I usually go with the backburner, that means I get stuck in situations that I would otherwise have no problem resolving, i.e. incoming ubers and sticky fields, that's part of the trade off, for that reduced functionality, I get to end whoever lets me get behind them.  You could almost assign the different pyro weapons to offensive and defensive roles, and I'm sure everyone has figured out, I'm pretty offensive.

[1Trace1]

Sorry Crow, I didn't mean to offend you, you're probably one of the best pyros I've seen. I was just trying to make the point that the backburner is not as much a crutch as it might seem even in a no crits game.  Also we made no specifications as to no backburner, so you're right that we shouldn't be complaining.  People have been crying over the backburner since it came out, and now that we're in a sort of competitive mindset it really brings it out even more. 

[CaffeinePowered]

how's it any different than showing your back to a spy in a no crit game? (don't start raging here, read the whole thing, cause this is by far not my main point)

This is also away from my original point of highlighting the hypocrisy of camping a doorway with stickies which takes about as much skill as beating off correctly, and then saying the backburner takes no skill.  At least the pyro has to press the forward button at the same time as the mouse button.  Really my main goal there was to complain about the hypocrisy, I shouldn't have let spore goad me off topic about it.

No caff, it's not an issue, because I'm out, why, because it is getting my knickers in a twist that people are blatantly calling me either A) unskilled or B) a cheater.  And no, Valve are the last people I would blame here, as out of all the game design companies out there, I trust them the most to get their shit straight.

You all seem to forget the pyro got buffed at the same time he got his shiny new toy, it was a buff he needed, there is a now a very compelling trade off when you use the backburner versus the regular flame thrower.  I've played full rounds with both for comparison, and they both have very strong arguments.  I usually go with the backburner, that means I get stuck in situations that I would otherwise have no problem resolving, i.e. incoming ubers and sticky fields, that's part of the trade off, for that reduced functionality, I get to end whoever lets me get behind them.  You could almost assign the different pyro weapons to offensive and defensive roles, and I'm sure everyone has figured out, I'm pretty offensive.

Point 1: Spies - Spy backstab is not a crit, its a one hit kill, much like the headshot. It may give that little noice and flash 'crit' but headshots/backstabs have been the same since quakeworld TF

Point 2: No company is infallible, especially Valve, ref: original versions of steam, CSS Dynamic weapon pricing, pyro damage drop off

Point 3: From the outside looking in, it seems to me that no one realized that it didn't turn the backburner's crits off. Kor just happened to bring up the point after you guys beat them. Kor did not mention you, in fact no one mentioned you until you said you yourself said you were going to "drop out" of it because you didn't like people whining about it.

Theres a line between whining and bringing up a valid point, and I think Kor raises a valid point. No one has singled you out at all, no one called you a cheater, just the point was raise for debate that we agreed to no crits, but the backburner still crits.  Thus either the people running the tournament, ie. Dave and Ianaki, or the participants should be able to decide as a whole whether or not to allow it.



While I wont lie that I think some of this is motivated by personal feelings its something that needs to be considered. Take a step back from the thread and your computer and think if someone has actually personally attacked you here, I'm fairly sure Vandam used the weapon in the match too, so its not like your team was the only one using it.

[NiceGuy]

Wow, crazy thread is going crazy. Sorry Crow, but I don't think anyone was directly hurling their negativity at you specifically. They just hate the backburner and you're really good with it, that's all.

Maybe a compromise could be prior to the match captains must agree to use the backburner, if one disagrees, you don't use it. Simple as that.

That was the whole plan all along. I thought we had already established the use of the backburner would depend on the mutual agreement of the two teams to do so. If you guys didn't get a chance to discuss it but resumed playing the match (with both teams using the backburner), I think that counts as a go ahead.

I completely agree with Kor, the backburner is overpowered and does not belong in a tourney with no crits. That being said we sorta need to recognize that we're brbu and this has never been a super serious tournament. No offense to Fatkids or anything but we played them without backburner while crow had his and we still won. The backburner is certainly worthy of all the QQ goin on but it's certainly not a a surefire way to win. I say for anything else we do that is even moderately serious no backburner or other unlocks, but for our friendly competition at hand (BRBMGTSFAD)  leave it as is. 

My 2 cents.

I think what Trace was getting at wasn't to rub our win in your face, Crow. He was just trying to say that having a team with a really good backburner doesn't necessarily mean insta-win, like I feel Kor is suggesting. I was late on the draw, it seems. 

I just hope that our awesome community and friendships won't let this minor and insignificant little thing spread us apart like some cheap hooker's legs in heat. Can't we all just get along?  ;D

[Master Shake]

I agree with crow here. When everyone decided on tf_weapons_criticals off they knew what that meant.  So what if you think the backburners overpowered, too bad.  Personally, I don't.  Like crow said, there are a lot of situations where the regular flamethrower would keep you alive, and the backburner leaves you dead in an instant.  Yes valve needs to let the kritzkreig work with this setting, but they haven't yet so everyone should just deal.  Lets finish the tourney with the rules as they currently are, and in the future maybe we can work something definitive out ahead of time.  For me, I always play pyro and I love the backburner.  Lots of times I die when an enemy uber comes rushing at me, where with the regular thrower i could just knock them away.  Same with stickies.  Valve did a great job of balancing it, they've made the necessary changes since release, and it's now a part of the game. 

tl;dr version:  TOO BAD, the backburner is a part of the game so why are we picking and choosing which weapons we can use and which we cant.  Valve thinks its balanced, so should we.  This guy does a nice job of summing it up too http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/sh...p?t=705556.

[Kor]

By and large the point has been missed in the last 15 posts or so.

The presence of ciriticals in a non-criticals tournament is a scenario that should not be present. If the Backburner shot flowers and caused you toke heavily we wouldn't have an issue here. It's simply an inconsistency that's easily corrected if it was desired.

There's no need for shitslinging, but it is a topic that has an unpleasant connotations to it. I suppose the best way to move forward to it find a way to compromise when 2 teams meet and disagree on the Backburner usage.

[KarthXLR]

With what Kor just said, I think this thread is over.

OVER I SAY!

[REDjackeT]

This will effectively disable the kritskreig and axstinguisher and all other "crits" except spy backstabs/sniper headshots. Why it works on all '100% crit' weapons except the back burner I don't know, but if it doesn't it should be disallowed for the purpose of the 4v4 tournament.

Side notes:

The command does not disable the Axetinguisher as it is a conditional crit (must be on fire).

It does not disable the BB for the same reason that it does not disable knife and sniper rifle crits, they are location based.

The kritskreig raises random crit chance from whatever it was to 100%.  If random crits are disabled, it wont function.

Point 1: Spies - Spy backstab is not a crit, its a one hit kill, much like the headshot. It may give that little noice and flash 'crit' but headshots/backstabs have been the same since quakeworld TF

Functionally, the backstab is a crit.  The spy knife doesn't crit normally because it's crit functionality is an instant kill (or probably just a really high crit multiplier).

Same with the sniper rifle.  The crit multiplier on the sniper rifle is set at 3x instead of 2x.

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sorry, just kinda felt like this was information you might find handy in some way... everyone... feel free to ignore.

-EDiT_
it said "feel free to ignore"... *cry*

[KarthXLR]

[quote author=CaffeinePowered link=topic=917.msg23750#msg23750 date=1216707673]
This will effectively disable the kritskreig and axstinguisher and all other "crits" except spy backstabs/sniper headshots. Why it works on all '100% crit' weapons except the back burner I don't know, but if it doesn't it should be disallowed for the purpose of the 4v4 tournament.

Side notes:

The command does not disable the Axetinguisher as it is a conditional crit (must be on fire).

It does not disable the BB for the same reason that it does not disable knife and sniper rifle crits, they are location based.

The kritskreig raises random crit chance from whatever it was to 100%.  If random crits are disabled, it wont function.

Point 1: Spies - Spy backstab is not a crit, its a one hit kill, much like the headshot. It may give that little noice and flash 'crit' but headshots/backstabs have been the same since quakeworld TF

Functionally, the backstab is a crit.  The spy knife doesn't crit normally because it's crit functionality is an instant kill (or probably just a really high crit multiplier).

Same with the sniper rifle.  The crit multiplier on the sniper rifle is set at 3x instead of 2x.

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sorry, just kinda felt like this was information you might find handy in some way... everyone... feel free to ignore.
[/quote]
I thought I said this thread was over.

/faceslap