Backburner: It destroys homes, loots museums, and shaved your cat...

[REDjackeT]

Caff said he was going to post a new thread for the BB discussion, but didn't... so HERE!

I don't see what all the fuss is about (I may be a bit bias here).  I'm not some unstoppable killing machine.  I don't BONZAI CHARGE in to a group or even a single person and expect to survive/win/achieve inner peace.  Normally, when I do, I end up achieving outer piece.  Hur hur.

Have I DESTROYED LIVES via charging headlong?  Sure... most were almost dead anyway though.  Or they were just awful.  Or they deserved it (SCOUTS!).  It's not a good idea though and I dislike doing it.  If I take out a medic, ok, but I'd still rather not die.  I'd still rather sneak aboot and hear the nice dinging sound as I chew though someone who will likely complain about me being a no-talent scrub.

As far as the HP... and everything really... valve may have made a bad move by doing the Unlocks and the Buffing in one go.  They intertwined them.  The 50HP wasn't just some random addition with no rhyme/reason/habadashery (sp?  too lazy to look it up)haberdashery.  The pyro had a survivability problem and a bit of a damage problem.  The damage problem is fixed with the less-harsh damage falloff.  Survivability was helped with the AB, but if the BB has no AB, then WTF and other acronyms of a varied and meaningful nature.  Creative?  Nay.  But is there really a reason to go off and think of something complex when it's really not needed?

The 50hp helps me survive the fact that I actually have to get within "gangbang" range in order to cause things to combust.  The spy has cloak/disguises to help him.  The spy doesn't instantly hold a large parade as soon as he attacks.  If he fails, theres a chance no one will notice.  I've seen it.  With my own two hands.  If I fail an ambush... well... people know it.  Theres the fooshing sound and if I actually do land a hit that ended up not being aligned right, theres the dancing fire animation along with the "FIRE FIRE FIRE!" screaming of the poor soul I ignited.  There is no subilty.

Can I abuse it and go charging about like some ninny?  Sure!  I've done this with results that I label "my failures at life".  Does it really benefit me to noob it up?  No more so then it benefits any other foolish mortal solo charging a group of ruffians.

All-in-all, I'm just kinda tired of the noob/noskill/zomg-pyros commentary.  I don't complain about "skill rockets", demo spam, SCOUTS THAT BUZZ AROUND YOU LIKE EVIL GNATS WITH HIGH POWERED CANNONS STRAPPED TO THEM AND YOU JUST CAN'T KILL THEM SINCE THEY WONT STOP MOVING AND LET YOU SWAT THEM!  ARRRG!  Or snipers, that sit back in realitive safety from anyone that isn't australian and poorly dressed.

I am trying to be a bit... unbias... and reasonable.  I'd like a nice discussion if we're going to bother about it.  I'll try to remain clam and not be shellfish about all this.  If we don't really want to discuss this, feel free to ignore this and my exciting new book entitled "Ask me about my Grandchildren: 101 ways to destroy your soul via the elderly".

-EDiT_
Yay peaches...

[cannedpeahes]

The 50HP wasn't just some random addition with no rhyme/reason/habadashery (sp?  too lazy to look it up). 

Haberdashery. And it's a place where they make menswear.

[KarthXLR]

It doesn't change to matter of critical fire in a no-crit tournament.

[WTF Joel]

I don't know about anyone else, but I had no problem playing pyro before the update, I was able to kick ass, and completely own with a good medic. Now the pyro, with the back burner, can strafe a level 3 sentry and walk away with a big grin. That is stuff that spy/pyro teams should do, or the demo/soldier, a pyro should not be suiting for that job. From where I am playing there was never any survival problems. The pyro had the most powerful close quarters weapon. Yes he had to get in close to use it with results, but that was part of the class. It was balanced. The back burner now enables a pyro to kill someone before he can turn, and can massacre a whole group so long as there is one idiot not facing him. The 50+ health is too much, it's not needed, that was the point of having a medic and his over charge, and the point of the medic update was to get people to play said class. Crits from behind, cheap, yes, but I would be perfectly fine if his normal crits were taken away. Too many crits = over powered. The flare gun assists with snipers as, and if you don't like demo spam, which I can honestly say is not spam if you played a round on tfc with caff as a demo, or skill rockets, then use the standard flamethrower with its air blast. Everything is balanced this way. The extra health and normal crits ruin it.

[Master Shake]

Pyros were able to easily destroy an sg before too.  IF you do it right, you can get out with no damage dealt from an sg.

[REDjackeT]

It doesn't change to matter of critical fire in a no-crit tournament.

no, but thats not really the topic.  This is about the BB in general, or at least, it's supposed to be.

Crit fire being disabled in tourny also has more to do with random chance being removed.  The BB, Axetinguisher, sniper rifle, and knife have critical hits that aren't "random chance".  Nor does the kritskreig, which I think should work with crits disabled since its a tactical device.

There are issues with disabling crits too... since the game is supposed to be balanced around them (see: needle guns).  That being said, I think the whole issue is a non-issue.  It's silly to change the rules mid tourny, and next time around they can flat out ban whatever they want to ban and call it a day before it even starts.  Done and done.

[copulatingduck]

Pyros were able to easily destroy an sg before too.  IF you do it right, you can get out with no damage dealt from an sg.

No, that was only the case with sentries around a corner. After the update, the pyro could take out lvl3 sentries in a hallway (I did it with sentries in ctf_impact many many times to try to make a point to people). I don't know how reinstating damage falloff has affected this, but that should never have been possible.

And let's agree to ignore tourney play for now. The fact that some crits work, and yet valve hasn't bothered to allow the critzkreig to work (which many people are not against; it's simply RANDOM crits everyone hates) shows how little valve cares to balance/fix competitive/tourney play.

[HeK]

As someone who plays as pyro a lot, my largest complaint with the back-burner is that it has no disadvantage.

The airblast was added to the game, but it isn't completely useful. It doesn't work against classes other then Soldiers and Demomen.  A normal Pyro has no chance against a pyro with a back-burner. Why should the class be granted same-damage, crits from behind, AND extra health? To top it off, a Pyro is so fast that they can run circles around most classes.

There has to be an overall disadvantage to the back-burner. Loose 50hp instead of gain, little damage when attacking from front, or a slower movement speed. How about a limit on how long they can sustain a BB burn; 7-10 seconds then it explodes/inflicts damage on the user.

The original idea of unlockable weapons is to award players with an 'alternate' play style, not an advantage. Give and take, each extra weapon needs defined advantages and disadvantages. This is clear with the Medic unlocks, and even the other two Pyro unlocks.

[CaffeinePowered]

The +50 health is what most people complain about and I don't think the pyro needed it, at all. Good pyros still got kills and could run into a group of people and get out if they knew what they were doing. Now you can get into that group, lite everyone on fire, people panic and they just can't kill you or you do enough damage that half of them are going to burn to death. Not something the pyro was meant to do, it was 'lite on fire, then run', break up a push, or ambush people from the side or behind.

The BB I believe is intended to reward ambush pyros that come from behind or the side, the airburst is for pyros to be able to close the gap running directly at a soldier/demo. You have to ask yourself what was the pyro intended for? The pyro is meant to be anti-spy, ambush, and flanking class. It was never meant to carry the offense like it currently is, get a pack of BB's together and you can storm almost anything.


Base Health - Overhealed Health (Highest to Lowest)
Heavy - 300 - 450
Pyro (BB) - 225 - 338
Soldier - 200 - 300
Demo - 175 - 263
Pyro (AB) - 175 - 263
Medic - 150 - 225
Sniper - 125 - 188
Scout - 125 - 188
Spy - 125 - 188
Engineer - 125 - 188

Class Speed (Fastest to Slowest)
Scout - 400v
Medic - 320v
Spy/Pyro/Engineer/Sniper (Tie) - 300v
Demo - 280v
Soldier - 240v
Heavy - 230v

So, you have something that goes ~30% faster and has higher health than the second heaviest class in the game, and more health if its overhealed than the heaviest class in the game. Theres something fundamentally wrong with that.

Valve's reasoning in justifying this was so that pyros could close the gap with soldiers and demos, but wasn't that the reason they added the airburst, so you could do the exact same thing? So if in an ideal situation both upgrades are supposed to allow you to close the gap and kill soldiers what is supposed to counter the pyro?

Previously, it was the soldier/demo's job to counter pyros (and to a lesser extent heavies) now they are able to win those encounters more often than not, and its something that should not be happening. Why is it that suddenly where there were maybe 1 - 2 pyros at most on a team suddenly theres 3 - 4 constantly. I don't see a lot of medics running around after their update now that most of the population has their achievements, you used to see 1 - 2 pre-update and you still see 1 - 2 post-update.

We should not have to wait for valve to release other class packs to "rebalance the game" if they are going about it that way they are doing it completely wrong. Old stuff should be balanced with the new stuff, because I play with old gear or don't have the unlocks does not mean that I should lose to you. Or that I should have to wait for a class that I play to get their new toys to counter yours.

Don't make me bust out planetside stories about how ill-gotten buffs/nerfs/new content fucking ruined that game quicker than a fat kid on a jelly donut.

[rumsfald]

Backburner is the only unlock that you get two additional abilities (health and 100% crits) in giving up one base ability (airburst).

For comparison, the medic's second unlock gives up Uber (the best ability in game) for a highly situational Critzkreig.

[Surf314]

I think they will fix the pyro, just on valve time.  They are prolly talking about it now.  If they reduced the demo/solly ammo for god knows what reason to re-balance you can be sure they will fix bb.

[WTF Joel]

seems kind of one sided atm o.o

[CaffeinePowered]

Backburner is the only unlock that you get two additional abilities (health and 100% crits) in giving up one base ability (airburst).

For comparison, the medic's second unlock gives up Uber (the best ability in game) for a highly situational Critzkreig.

On that note....


Syringe - Crits for Health
Medi-Gun - Invulnerability for Criticals
Ubersaw - Speed for Ubercharge

Flamethrower - Airburst for Health and Back-Stab
Shotgun - Damage/Refire for Long-range lite someone on fire
Ax - Crits and Damage(vs not on fire) for 100% Crit + Damage (vs on Fire)

[Master Shake]

I think that the class is supposed to be overpowered.  It's the first offensive pack to receive unlockables.  As soon as the other offensive classes start to get these updates too, the game will be more balanced.  I think valve is planning on the balance in the long run, not just for a few months while they're releasing the updates.  Just another thought

[CaffeinePowered]

I think that the class is supposed to be overpowered.  It's the first offensive pack to receive unlockables.  As soon as the other offensive classes start to get these updates too, the game will be more balanced.

Um no, no no no no no and furthermore NO

This means that people that don't achievement whore get stiffed with inferior weapons which is not what valve is going for, it also means that a bunch of people that play the later classes to get updated are getting the royal shaft, so lets say heavies and then snipers get updates that make them over powered, well considering 12 people I think Ill have a ton of fun playing on a server thats 3 pyros, 3 heavies, 3 snipers and 3 misc on each team. Yea, that makes for a ton of fun.

So in every post you've made about supporting the backburner you acknowledge that it is in fact overpowered. If they take your approach to balancing the game I don't think many of us will be playing as time goes on.

[Eschatos]

I could deal with not having +50 health if they un-nerfed the backburning.  After that recent update I get back crits maybe a quarter of the amount I got before the update.

[Wedge]

They didn't nerf the backburning, they fixed outright glitches with it.  "Back" detection is never going to work right with TF2 anyways.  My biggest problem has always been the Pyro's speed combined with Valve's client-damage deference netcode.  When they reduced the damage falloff it made it so a Pyro can charge right at you and do significant damage without ever appearing to hit you.  Combined with the increased health of the Backburner, the best I can often hope for as a Medic pouring blutsauger ammo into a charging Pyro is a tie.  Though now I'll often run out of my clip before they die, and will die myself despite any health gained from the needles.  It's ridiculous that a Pyro should be able to charge headlong through a storm of needles and still take out a Medic.  I used to wipe out stupid Pyros that did this all the time, but now it takes a lot of luck on my part to survive.  They need to nerf the health or the speed or the damage range when moving forward using the Backburner.

[rumsfald]

I think that the class is supposed to be overpowered.  It's the first offensive pack to receive unlockables.  As soon as the other offensive classes start to get these updates too, the game will be more balanced. 

It's tough enough staying alive as medic as is, doubly-so now with pew-pew-backburners.  If every offensive class got a similar damage (and health) boost medics will be near impossible to keep alive.

[Fail Medic]

(shrugs) Possibly off-topic but I want to go on record again and state I dislike the model Valve implemented here.  If it's already been stated, smite me.  I want to vent.

I've yet to hit Milestone 1 on Pyro for a couple of reasons.  My fault, no one elses.  I just haven't put in time to grind for my new weapons.  ... Why would I ever be afforded a reason to QQ about not being a high enough level in a first-person shooter that does not maintain a persistent world?  I ask this of Valve.

The unlockables should have been skins and nothing else.  Prestige should not yield game-changers in a game that lives and dies in 10-20 minute rounds.

They want to screw with the TACTICAL OPTIONS OF THE CLASSES, they should have all that shit turned on DAY 1 when the goddamn update comes out.  Getting the hotly-controversial backburner should not be a fucking quest for me.

[REDjackeT]

I don't know about anyone else, but I had no problem playing pyro before the update, I was able to kick ass, and completely own with a good medic. Now the pyro, with the back burner, can strafe a level 3 sentry and walk away with a big grin. That is stuff that spy/pyro teams should do, or the demo/soldier, a pyro should not be suiting for that job. From where I am playing there was never any survival problems. The pyro had the most powerful close quarters weapon. Yes he had to get in close to use it with results, but that was part of the class. It was balanced. The back burner now enables a pyro to kill someone before he can turn, and can massacre a whole group so long as there is one idiot not facing him. The 50+ health is too much, it's not needed, that was the point of having a medic and his over charge, and the point of the medic update was to get people to play said class. Crits from behind, cheap, yes, but I would be perfectly fine if his normal crits were taken away. Too many crits = over powered. The flare gun assists with snipers as, and if you don't like demo spam, which I can honestly say is not spam if you played a round on tfc with caff as a demo, or skill rockets, then use the standard flamethrower with its air blast. Everything is balanced this way. The extra health and normal crits ruin it.

I had a full response to this, but it was eaten.

And who cares, really?

But, I would like to say:
- The BB does not front crit/Random crit
- The BB does not crit someone in the front if their team mate has their backturned, etc...

Backburner is the only unlock that you get two additional abilities (health and 100% crits) in giving up one base ability (airburst).

For comparison, the medic's second unlock gives up Uber (the best ability in game) for a highly situational Critzkreig.

Or

Flame Thrower
- Reflects projectiles (grenades/rockets/flares) and makes them your own
- Reflects/moves stickies
- punts players/gnomes
- Random Critical Chance

BB
- 100% Crits from behind
- 50hp

The BB is easier to quantify then the AB...

-----------

K... I'm officially done... I don't really care anymore.

I'm just tired of hearing about it and being called a noob to my face...