Backburner: It destroys homes, loots museums, and shaved your cat...

[Benito Mussolini]

Backburner is the only unlock that you get two additional abilities (health and 100% crits) in giving up one base ability (airburst).

For comparison, the medic's second unlock gives up Uber (the best ability in game) for a highly situational Critzkreig.

Your argument goes down with the very example you gave: Critzkrieg charges up faster (2nd ability).

Also, it's untrue that pyros can now take soldiers and heavy 1-on-1.
Heavies still have more health and deal more damage than pyros when the two players face each other.
Soldiers and demomen are highly advantaged whenever they get height, which they can get easily (rocket/pipe bomb jumps). By playing well, they can also send the pyro up high with explosives and whatever the pyro's speed is, it will stay still at the mercy of the soldier, the demoman or any of their teammates.

The +50hp is only to deal with the lost of the only defence the pyro has (AB). I think Valve got lazy for that (giving more health is too easy to give a class mor suvivability).
Giving the BB only crits from behind would be too weak* because, once the pyro is spotted, it would go down too fast (Valve hasn't boosted the pyro for nothing). If they didn't get a defensive advantage (+50hp), pyros would be getting another offensive advantage to compensate for the lack of survivability, and the pyros would become a fully offensive class and people would complain even more.

*The recent update made back crits less frequent. In addition, if he gets people from behind, the pyro deserved the kill from the backcrits. Backcrits are not a big advantage knowing that, in any occasion, the player attacking gets an advantage by getting behind his target.

[KarthXLR]

- The BB does not front crit/Random crit

LIES!

I've seen it with my own eyes!

[HeK]

The unlockables should have been skins and nothing else.  Prestige should not yield game-changers in a game that lives and dies in 10-20 minute rounds.

+1, and scores and scores of funny hats!

[rumsfald]

[quote author=rumsfald link=topic=924.msg23892#msg23892 date=1216764952]
Backburner is the only unlock that you get two additional abilities (health and 100% crits) in giving up one base ability (airburst).

For comparison, the medic's second unlock gives up Uber (the best ability in game) for a highly situational Critzkreig.

Your argument goes down with the very example you gave: Critzkrieg charges up faster (2nd ability).
[/quote]

That's splitting hairs.  A marginal 10% rate increase, that most don't notice, is not a separate ability.  If the Critzkrieg made the Medic regen 10% faster, that would be different. But it is not.  Critzkrieg has not made more people play medic.  Most medics don't carry around Critzkrieg. Crtizkrieg has not spawned repeated posts on this forum (like the 4-5 that Backburner has).

The +50hp is only to deal with the lost of the only defence the pyro has (AB). I think Valve got lazy for that (giving more health is too easy to give a class mor suvivability).

I think this is the point that most everyone agrees on. Giving additional health is lazy.

It's THE point of debate as to whether the pyro needed any additional survivability to begin with. As Caff posted, it was already above average in speed and above average in health, two big factors in survivability.  If the pyro with backburner is supposed to be the flanking, ambush class, then I am puzzled why any additional health is needed. The spy is an ambush class, should we have spies with Demomen health? No. You give the ambush class a snare or camo or something.

[Benito Mussolini]

You give the ambush class a [glow=green,2,300]snare [/glow]or camo or something.

I really like that idea...

But making the pyro that fast and that resistant to attacks is necessary when you think that the pyro's attack have short range... I wouldn't like not being able to even set a sniper/spy/engineer on fire because they run faster than me, knowing that the only other weapon is the shotgun (or flaregun...) which is mostly effective when close enough.

That 50health may change the class' play style, making it more effective as a "tank" when there is no heavy around.

I agree that 50 health can make quite a difference (28,57% boost) but it's only health in the end. Heavies are not the hardest class the kill only because of their 300hp. Other classes have their own way to survive: Scouts have speed and double jumps, Soldiers have rocket jump*, Pyros have AB, Demomen have pipe jumps*, Enigneers can hide behind sentries (and get health from dispensers), Snipers have long range, Medics auto-heal (and some speed boost) and Spies cloak.
What does the poor pyro have when you take away his AB?

Think about it... you don't want the pyro to die that easily...
Don't you...?

*Low examples, but they do have a lot of health.

[Spore]

I could deal with not having +50 health if they un-nerfed the backburning.  After that recent update I get back crits maybe a quarter of the amount I got before the update.

Now you know what it is like to be a spy where with every update Valve breaks backstab more and more.

[Panda]

This thread is a whole lot of WAAAHAHHHHHHHHH.  Stop crying, pyro got the update first.  After the rest of the classes get their neat toys, if they backburner is still broken THEN complain.  Right now all you're going to do is get valve to nerf something too early and when the soldier/demo start leaving craters the size of the map with whatever stupid thing they get, the pyro will have no way to live through it.  Not to mention that unless the pyro completely gets the drop on them, heavies still rip them in half while laughing in a Russian accent.

Pyro is fun to play again and is actually viable instead of useless.  Don't join the cry baby bandwagon and change that.

[timepants]

I think that the class is supposed to be overpowered.  It's the first offensive pack to receive unlockables.  As soon as the other offensive classes start to get these updates too, the game will be more balanced.  I think valve is planning on the balance in the long run, not just for a few months while they're releasing the updates.  Just another thought

You do realize that Valve will be rolling out class updates until this time next year, right? Breaking game balance and telling people it will all be balanced next year doesn't keep me interested in playing, and the entire reason Valve is making these packs is to keep interest in their game. If it takes months for them to fix the balance, I don't think I'll care anymore. I'll move on to some other games.

This thread is a whole lot of WAAAHAHHHHHHHHH.  Stop crying, pyro got the update first.  After the rest of the classes get their neat toys, if they backburner is still broken THEN complain.  Right now all you're going to do is get valve to nerf something too early and when the soldier/demo start leaving craters the size of the map with whatever stupid thing they get, the pyro will have no way to live through it.

If Valve starts giving soldier/demo more firepower or health, I will complain about that too. Buffing those 2 classes to make up for the overpowered BB is counterintuitive, instead the BB should be nerfed. I don't want soldier to be as fast as a medic, or a demo running around with 300 health. Airblast or back crits are all the buff the pyro needs.

I agree that 50 health can make quite a difference (28,57% boost) but it's only health in the end. Heavies are not the hardest class the kill only because of their 300hp. Other classes have their own way to survive: Scouts have speed and double jumps, Soldiers have rocket jump*, Pyros have AB, Demomen have pipe jumps*, Enigneers can hide behind sentries (and get health from dispensers), Snipers have long range, Medics auto-heal (and some speed boost) and Spies cloak.
What does the poor pyro have when you take away his AB?

Nobody wants to take away his AB. We want to restore the balance of health vs. speed this game used to have.

My problem with the Backburner is that it makes my favorite classes, Demo and Engi, more frustrating than ever before. Watching a Pyro walk right through my sticky traps and live is no fun. BB Pyros can survive 4 stickies and I don't want to use all my stickies on one doorway since I'm usually watching multiple doors at once. Engi has it even worse than Demo. A BB Pyro can take down a Level 3 sentry without uber. The flames destroy a building faster than I can repair it and they go straight through my buildings. A single sentry can no longer defend the intel rooms of 2fort and Chaos Castle.

[Luca Shoal]

This thread is a whole lot of WAAAHAHHHHHHHHH.  Stop crying, pyro got the update first.  After the rest of the classes get their neat toys, if they backburner is still broken THEN complain.  Right now all you're going to do is get valve to nerf something too early and when the soldier/demo start leaving craters the size of the map with whatever stupid thing they get, the pyro will have no way to live through it.  Not to mention that unless the pyro completely gets the drop on them, heavies still rip them in half while laughing in a Russian accent.

Pyro is fun to play again and is actually viable instead of useless.  Don't join the cry baby bandwagon and change that.

[ScottyGrayskull]

I don't know about anyone else, but I had no problem playing pyro before the update, I was able to kick ass, and completely own with a good medic.

Agreed. I haven't gotten the Pyro unlockables yet (haven't played since the first weekend of the update :'(), but before the update I regularly did quite well with the Pyro. My only complaint is what ainmosni has said: most attacks were suicide runs due to the limited range. However I would regularly get at least two or three kills for every one death, which is pretty decent imo. Plus, in many situations an ubered Pyro is/was more fearsome than an ubered Heavy. I know when I'm a Medic I generally preferred to give my Uber to a Pyro.

My only other real complaint about the Pyro is due to the limited range the class is pretty useless in more open maps. However I don't really see a way to rectify this without defeating the purpose of the class. Besides, that's something that mapmakers should take into consideration when they make their maps.

So... I'm going to agree with the people who don't like the BackBurner as is. The health boost seems pretty unnecessary. If you fucked up and don't get them on the back, suffer the consequences... like a Spy missing a backstab.

[Neonie]

(shrugs) Possibly off-topic but I want to go on record again and state I dislike the model Valve implemented here.  If it's already been stated, smite me.  I want to vent.

I've yet to hit Milestone 1 on Pyro for a couple of reasons.  My fault, no one elses.  I just haven't put in time to grind for my new weapons.  ... Why would I ever be afforded a reason to QQ about not being a high enough level in a first-person shooter that does not maintain a persistent world?  I ask this of Valve.

The unlockables should have been skins and nothing else.  Prestige should not yield game-changers in a game that lives and dies in 10-20 minute rounds.

They want to screw with the TACTICAL OPTIONS OF THE CLASSES, they should have all that shit turned on DAY 1 when the goddamn update comes out.  Getting the hotly-controversial backburner should not be a fucking quest for me.

Ah-men. now if you will turn your books to pyro's 50:2

[Versus]

If you fucked up and don't get them on the back, suffer the consequences... like a Spy missing a backstab.

Yes.

[NiceGuy]

I think we're all missing the REAL reason the pyro is so OP..

Has no one noticed that the pyro's TAUNT CAN KILL YOU IN 1 HIT!!!

OMGWTFBBQQ VALVE?!? Where is MY insta-kill taunt???

So many people have been distracted over the insignificant extra little hp from the BB, they seem to have totally forgotten about this egregious game breaking pryo elitist favoring  :o

[CaffeinePowered]

Last thing Im going to say on this topic....


Luca Shoal - ~60 hours as pyro (next highest engi 37)
Insomnia - ~70 hours as pyro (next highest Soldier 21.5)
RedJacket - 219.4 hours as pyro (next highest engi 10)
Crow - 28 as pyro (27 as soldier)
Panda - 19 as pyro (18 as Spy)
JMaster - 61 Spy (60 Engi)


Go play a solid week of other classes, like every day 2 hours perhaps of a class you neglect, fight back burners. You get a different perspective from standing down the other end of the barrel. If RedJacket and insomnia play soldier/demo for a week solid I'll be glad to take up a back burner instead of my coveted airburst  :

I apologize to some if I'm coming off really bitchy or you think Im complaining too much. Being a former planetside player, and atomsmasher could validate this, I tend to be quite vocal when it comes to buffs/nerfs. I mean no offense or disrespect to anyone posting in this or any other thread concerning this topic. I jut want the game to be fun and balanced for everyone.

[Geoff]

Everybody already knows Backburner is the adopted sister of Flamethrower.  I'd suggest you stop talking when she comes into room, no need to hurt anyone's feelings now.

[ainmosni]

Last thing Im going to say on this topic....


Luca Shoal - ~60 hours as pyro (next highest engi 37)
Insomnia - ~70 hours as pyro (next highest Soldier 21.5)
RedJacket - 219.4 hours as pyro (next highest engi 10)
Crow - 28 as pyro (27 as soldier)
Panda - 19 as pyro (18 as Spy)
JMaster - 61 Spy (60 Engi)


Go play a solid week of other classes, like every day 2 hours perhaps of a class you neglect, fight back burners. You get a different perspective from standing down the other end of the barrel. If RedJacket and insomnia play soldier/demo for a week solid I'll be glad to take up a back burner instead of my coveted airburst  :

I apologize to some if I'm coming off really bitchy or you think Im complaining too much. Being a former planetside player, and atomsmasher could validate this, I tend to be quite vocal when it comes to buffs/nerfs. I mean no offense or disrespect to anyone posting in this or any other thread concerning this topic. I jut want the game to be fun and balanced for everyone.

I have actually been playing other classes a lot more lately, been practicing my demo-ing and been medic-ing as well... I usually only choose pyro if there are only one or none around... I dislike being one of many pyros... especially if the rest don't know what they're doing.... (Which is like 90% of the pyros...)

[cannedpeahes]

If they wanted to make it more durable vs. soldiers, they shoulda just given him a Kevlar vest. Shrapnel and splash? No problem, with high-tensile multi-weave polymers.

Honestly, though, the BB doesn't make me QQ. Maybe it's because I can often take out a pyro before he even touches me as long as I hear him; maybe it's just because being killed, in general, doesn't tweak the "RAGE!" nerve buried somewhere in my gray matter. But as long as I'm not getting rayped in general, the effectiveness of one, single weapon doesn't mean that much to me.

[Dave]

Protip: play scout, if the pyro cant catch you its not a problem, if your stupid enough to attempt to take out a pyro head on then your gonna die, fact.

[copulatingduck]

I think that the class is supposed to be overpowered.  It's the first offensive pack to receive unlockables.  As soon as the other offensive classes start to get these updates too, the game will be more balanced.  I think valve is planning on the balance in the long run, not just for a few months while they're releasing the updates.  Just another thought

NONONONONONO

The unlocks are intended simply to be alternative ways to play, they were and have never been meant to be pure "upgrades," and that's straight from Valve. The unlockables are not supposed to be straight up better weapons, they are simply supposed to be alternatives someone might prefer. In other words, balance is supposed to be maintained at all times; if you think the pyro is OP right now, that's because it is.

Look at the medic weapons for example. None of them is strictly better to use. With a regular bonesaw, you have a muich better chance to defend yourself, many of us who play medic A LOT have noticed you just get more kills with the bonesaw, period. A medic won't win a melee fight with someone else unless they go down on the first hit or aren't paying attention, everyone swings faster. Two smacks and your medic is dead. Same story with regular needlegun. If you could get a crit-stream on someone, they go down, period. Kritzkreig, it's pretty obvious it's not 100%, I won't bother with making that argument.

But, I would like to say:
- The BB does not front crit/Random crit

For someone who plays pyro so much, you should know better than that. It DOES crit randomly as well, Valve never removed them.

[Surf314]

I'm really starting to prefer the regular flame thrower TBH.  I seriously wouldn't mind if they dropped the health bonus, it doesn't really make that much sense to me.  The back crits is plenty of buff and it should be for people that want to play like a spy (like I usually do when pyro).  But now that I've been playing more team oriented I prefer the AB because of how insanely well it works with team work.

Also I'm sure I'm not the only one that noticed but the achievements are geared towards "teaching" you how to play the class effectively.  It's mostly geared towards nubs so I guess the theory is that they should learn how to use the class effectively with the current weapons before they should switch to the new.  This makes sense if it worked a little better, you wouldn't want a bunch of idiots running around like "I got teh new wepons I R teh leetz fall b4 me" and then get gibbed instantly.