Backburner: It destroys homes, loots museums, and shaved your cat...

[Geoff]

Protip: play scout, if the pyro cant catch you its not a problem, if your stupid enough to attempt to take out a pyro head on then your gonna die, fact.

I have no problems up against pyros as scout.  Catch them by surprise with buckshot, backpedal and pistol them while they switch to shotgun, run up and buckshot them again before they switch to flamer.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Master Shake]

[quote author=J-Master link=topic=924.msg23899#msg23899 date=1216766602]
I think that the class is supposed to be overpowered.  It's the first offensive pack to receive unlockables.  As soon as the other offensive classes start to get these updates too, the game will be more balanced.  I think valve is planning on the balance in the long run, not just for a few months while they're releasing the updates.  Just another thought

NONONONONONO

The unlocks are intended simply to be alternative ways to play, they were and have never been meant to be pure "upgrades," and that's straight from Valve. The unlockables are not supposed to be straight up better weapons, they are simply supposed to be alternatives someone might prefer. In other words, balance is supposed to be maintained at all times; if you think the pyro is OP right now, that's because it is.

Look at the medic weapons for example. None of them is strictly better to use. With a regular bonesaw, you have a muich better chance to defend yourself, many of us who play medic A LOT have noticed you just get more kills with the bonesaw, period. A medic won't win a melee fight with someone else unless they go down on the first hit or aren't paying attention, everyone swings faster. Two smacks and your medic is dead. Same story with regular needlegun. If you could get a crit-stream on someone, they go down, period. Kritzkreig, it's pretty obvious it's not 100%, I won't bother with making that argument.
[/quote]
Ok, I believe you if valve said it, but think about what happened when the medic unlockables came out.  WHAT A HEAVY WITH ONLY CRITICALS, HE CAN"T BE STOPPED!  And then when everyone found out you could stack both of the ubers.  And you're telling me that's not an upgrade.  A bonesaw that charges your uber!  A needlegun that heals you!  When they first came out everyone was talking about how op the weapons were going to be, but it wasn't such a big deal because medic is a support class and not an offensive class.  First offensive class to come out with new weapons and everyone freaks out. Yeah, now that I think about it why would valve plan for long-term balance, people now would stop playing it.  I still think the pyro is op in general.  Anyways, noone listens to what we say anyways.  People who think the backburners op aren't going to change their minds.  And if you have the bb, you're still called a noob.  It doesn't matter anymore.  It is what it is, there's no point in complaining, unless you complain to valve. (I don't think they're going to change the pyro until the next set of unlockables.)

[Negate]

I could tell you I'm going to be brief, but that would be a lie. First off I believe all the pyro updates except for the backburner are 100% balanced no reason for complaint what so ever. Then in walks the back burner, the idea was created with good intentions on valves part I believe. A pyro who could come up behind a soldier take him completely by surprise and not get gibbed as the soldier fires at his feet and got the point Pre-update that was one of my real peeve's with the pyro class. Now the pyro has a shiny airblast which can be very versatile and encourages new ways for you and your team to work together. Then you have the Backburner its supposed to encourage a flanking/ambushing pyro. The kind of pyro who take the long way comes up from behind that group and barbecues them. This sadly is not what I see most of the time. Ever since the update I've seen pyros who will run head on at soldier and heavies, making no use of cover probably using nothing but w and mouse1. Now a decent heavy particularly one with a medic has no problem with killing this pyro. A good soldier likewise can still kill this pyro if he sees him coming. A good demo if he's setup already or gets crits can kill the pyro. If however maybe you aren't so good at those classes or your playing another class your screwed.

The scouts grievance: killing a pyro at range with the backburner is almost impossible he has a ton of hp and is only a little slower then you. Its far easier to kill a soldier or a heavy then it is a bb pyro. They at least are slow and can be manuvered around if I get lit up as a scout I have no choice I must run for a health pack or die horribly.

The engies problem: Pyros rushing at sentries dead on without uber and winning nuff said.

The Medics problem: after the medic update pyros just didn't have a chance against blut medics now the tables are turned however one whole blut clip will no longer kill a pyro so unless one of your teammates happens to save you and a health pack is nearby your dead.

the snipers woes before the back burner there were a couple of ways for a good sniper to win against an idiot pyro. If I could headshot the pyro then either a normal bodyshot or a smg could finish him off. No longer works with his additional health my best hope is a full charged headshot if I rely on my smg without any crits I could fire two or more clips into the pyro and still lose with the pyro living.

The spy issue: Is very similar to the snipers issue, pyros can just tank it out. Pre update if a pyro saw me and I knew I was dead I could backpedal and fire with my revolver it would take 3 or more shot to kill him if I had no crits. Now I can only kill a BB pyro in 3 shots if two of them are crits. Before at least the pyro had to be somewhat fair and let go of mouse1 for a second instead of just charging on with there flames and tank it, no longer necessary.

Now I understand the pyros woe, preupdate pyro was to weak to do his job, he was getting owned left and right. Only when ubered was he a serious threat. Getting killed over and over again by noob soldiers was annoying. Valve has gone a little to far with the 50hp the pyro is not a tank if he must become one he must either slow down or lose something else. 50hp is 50hp too many and encourages noob tactics instead of forcing them to play smart. One BB pyro isn't really a big deal however it usually seems as though its never just one its 3 or 4 or more. Thats the problem if the pyro was balanced i.e. not overpowered people wouldn't be flocking to play it and using the backburner. I personally believe the airblast is capable of so much more then the BB but only in certain situations +50hp helps you always. /rant

[Geoff]

This brings me to my next point, we need someone working on a plugin that does not allow it.  ;D

[Surf314]

You are not supposed to want to ditch your old weapons for the new ones, your decision should be based on what you are trying to accomplish and how your play style is.  The new/old weapons are all balanced against each other very well in both updates.

I dunno if you ever use the regular needle gun but when you get crits its almost like having a minigun, you can do massive damage.  Even better is that it is far more accurate and the arc can let you hit things from safety.  The kritzcrieg has obvious trade offs.  The uber saw is well, anyone that ran around massacring people with the original saw knows how hard it is to adjust to the uber saw.  With the speed downgrade its no longer a killing weapon like the original (the original was like your main attack weapon), its for running in and getting one hit on someone unsuspecting and if that doesn't kill him you run away and heal the guy you were with while he takes care of him.  If you can get 2+ hits then the other guy sucks.

On to pyro.  The shotgun replacement is good for long range and harassing the enemy but not much else.  You'd be lucky to get a kill with it but it is definitely useful for it's purpose.  It will make a sniper's aim off until he gets put out, it will make people far away take longer to make their push because they don't want to do it on fire, and so on.  The crit ax can be deadly but is also situational.  Before if you were sneaking up on someone it was almost better to use the ax because it took a lot of damage really quick and was basically insta-kill if it crit.  The fire ax solves a problem where you set everyone on fire but cant kill them either because they are wise to you, or there is too many of them to effectively focus fire.  It's trade off as stated is that they have to be on fire which already warns them of your presence.

The back burner specifically is the lone stand out in that for most it seems like a no brainer to choose it no matter what your play style.  Even if you aren't sneaky the possibility of getting some strafe crits is nice, and the health bonus makes you like a tank.  I think the main argument is you only need one or the other.  Before the update people did just fine doing sneak attacks but would often get killed before they actually killed people and if they had a medic would only end up slowing them down. The back crit damage now makes that an excellent strategy.  It's already a buff.  The health on top could be seen as too much.  The problem is if you are making the decision between the weapons you are thinking I get 2 advantages for the price of 1 when the real decision should be do I want to be sneaky or benefit my team in various activities (counter uber, protect sentry, clear stickies).

[CaffeinePowered]

This brings me to my next point, we need someone working on a plugin that does not allow it.  ;D

As much as I hate it, Im not going to disallow the weapon, I will however look into setting people's max_health to 175 if they use it (not sure if its possible)

[Benito Mussolini]

There is something I realised today...

Among the unlockable weapons, I think the backburner is the most balanced.
Why do I say that?

Let's take a look.

The blautsauger: I rarely see syringes crit... almost every medic I see use it.
Critskrieg: I almost never see it... once in a while.
Ubersaw: Who doesn't use it? (don't quote this saying that you don't, I know some people actually don't)

Flare gun: maybe second most balanced, I see it quite often, but many people still prefer old shotgun
Axtinguisher: I see it more than the regular ax.

The backburner, I think, is the only unlockable I see on about 50% of the players. I'd say that the other unlockables are either too good (blautsauger, ubersaw, axtinguicher) or too weak (Critskrieg). If half the pyros use the backburner as the other half uses the flamethrower, I think it is because the two weapons are equal in strenght. If that was true with the other unlockables, then we would see them as often as we see their original type weapon.

[KarthXLR]

I think it is because the two weapons are equal in strenght.

nononononono.

maybe actually.

but the +50 health is cheap. that we can confirm.

[Surf314]

There is something I realised today...

Among the unlockable weapons, I think the backburner is the most balanced.
Why do I say that?

Let's take a look.

The blautsauger: I rarely see syringes crit... almost every medic I see use it.
Critskrieg: I almost never see it... once in a while.
Ubersaw: Who doesn't use it? (don't quote this saying that you don't, I know some people actually don't)

Flare gun: maybe second most balanced, I see it quite often, but many people still prefer old shotgun
Axtinguisher: I see it more than the regular ax.

The backburner, I think, is the only unlockable I see on about 50% of the players. I'd say that the other unlockables are either too good (blautsauger, ubersaw, axtinguicher) or too weak (Critskrieg). If half the pyros use the backburner as the other half uses the flamethrower, I think it is because the two weapons are equal in strenght. If that was true with the other unlockables, then we would see them as often as we see their original type weapon.

I don't think so, to me they even seem cooler or people dont know how to use them well.  Like the critzkrieg for instance - no one knows how to use it.  They try and use it exactly like the uber and it gets them killed.  I doubt most people even know that it charges up 20% quicker.  The ubersaw is cooler so people use it even though they no longer are viable for helping out killing, which is ironic because now they try to more (see my previous post).  The blautsauger just helps people in their play style more because most medics dont attack unless confronted at close range (I've gone back and forth as I like to arc my needles to screw with people from a distance).

Another big thing is that the current loadout menu is so cumbersome that it's a bitch to change back and forth (3 clicks and some hunting vs 1 click or button press for every other menu - this can mean a lot midgame when you are caught up in the action).  So most people run through and make all the decisions once and pick the one that's easiest for them instead of trying to learn to use something else effectively (or the one that has the more pizazz).  The AB has star quality so many people still want to use it, it is also incredibly useful in certain situations.  My new problem with the BB is that pyro v pyro BB almost always wins because of the health bonus.  To a certain extent I think this is also a problem with the flare gun because it is so not effective against other pyros.  But then its not effective against anyone close range so that works out OK I guess.

[copulatingduck]

I doubt most people even know that it charges up 20% quicker.  

You included. It only charges up 10% faster.

[Eschatos]

There is something I realised today...

Among the unlockable weapons, I think the backburner is the most balanced.
Why do I say that?

Let's take a look.

The blautsauger: I rarely see syringes crit... almost every medic I see use it.
Critskrieg: I almost never see it... once in a while.
Ubersaw: Who doesn't use it? (don't quote this saying that you don't, I know some people actually don't)

Flare gun: maybe second most balanced, I see it quite often, but many people still prefer old shotgun
Axtinguisher: I see it more than the regular ax.

The backburner, I think, is the only unlockable I see on about 50% of the players. I'd say that the other unlockables are either too good (blautsauger, ubersaw, axtinguicher) or too weak (Critskrieg). If half the pyros use the backburner as the other half uses the flamethrower, I think it is because the two weapons are equal in strenght. If that was true with the other unlockables, then we would see them as often as we see their original type weapon.

Wow.  I never thought of it that way.  I agree on all of those except the Axetinguisher.  In my opinion it's shit.

[Surf314]

STFU Axestingisher rocks, you just have to know how to use it.  Also I could have sworn it said charges 20% faster in the loadout screen  :'(

[A. Crow]

bah, seriously, still?

>.>  btw, I sees at least one drama has unfolded while i was away, one I'm actually sorry I missed, but my research has benefited immensely to my break the past couple days.  And I don't hate you guys anymore.  Wait, Fail's gone?  wtf?

I still hold that the backburner is a fair part of the game.  And I must adamantly discourage messing with game balance server side.  It's about options, and as Benny said and I hinted at in the other thread, the backburner-afterburner tradeoff is probably one of the most balanced and significant in the game.

[NiceGuy]

bah, seriously, still?

>.>  btw, I sees at least one drama has unfolded while i was away, one I'm actually sorry I missed, but my research has benefited immensely to my break the past couple days.  And I don't hate you guys anymore.  Wait, Fail's gone?  wtf?

I still hold that the backburner is a fair part of the game.  And I must adamantly discourage messing with game balance server side.  It's about options, and as Benny said and I hinted at in the other thread, the backburner-afterburner tradeoff is probably one of the most balanced and significant in the game.

Agreed. And welcome back. Also, Fail is staying!  ;D

[Geoff]

[quote author=A. Crow link=topic=924.msg24945#msg24945 date=1217056896]
bah, seriously, still?

>.>  btw, I sees at least one drama has unfolded while i was away, one I'm actually sorry I missed, but my research has benefited immensely to my break the past couple days.  And I don't hate you guys anymore.  Wait, Fail's gone?  wtf?

I still hold that the backburner is a fair part of the game.  And I must adamantly discourage messing with game balance server side.  It's about options, and as Benny said and I hinted at in the other thread, the backburner-afterburner tradeoff is probably one of the most balanced and significant in the game.

Agreed. And welcome back. Also, Fail is staying!  ;D
[/quote]

My prayers have been answered.