It looks like they did pass the Bailout

[Surf314]

[quote author=Benito Mussolini link=topic=1498.msg41919#msg41919 date=1222740824]
[quote author=CaffeinePowered link=topic=1498.msg41836#msg41836 date=1222716294]
Lesse Faire (french sp?) ftw

Laisser faire (as in "let go", I guess is what you mean)

Also,

LOL @ STUPID AMERICAN ECONOMY OLOLOLOLOLOL

non-interventionism ftl...
[/quote]

Maybe you or your government would care to take a share in the bailout, I mean after all, if its a global economy and the US Economy collapses, your economy is going to take a nose dive as well. Why should we bear the entire burden if everyone's welfare is at stake.

But really you shouldn't do anything, every time you fuck with the market and try to fix it, you make it worse. The government trying to fix the market is like an incompetent surgeon trying to perform his art with mittens on.
[/quote]

I agree with this, there are several things they can do to help but it would take a competent person completely not effected by special interests.  Which will never happen.

[Geoff]

Words can not express my rage, you can find nearly a trillion dollars to bail out the bad decisions of banks, yet not provide health care, awesome. I don't know why the general populous of the US doesn't get up right now and match to Washington and slay those who voted for the bill, oh right, too fat.

This

[exanimo]

The funny thing is that people are only invested in American confidence ... just numbers, that is it. So not everyone will lose all too much.
America has nothing tangible to offer and it really pisses me off.  Ron Paul is looking a lot better every day that passes since this collapse. I can't believe how much Dow dropped ... *Sigh*.
I wonder if this is the fall of capitalism as we know it.

Americans have to get their muscle up.

[Surf314]

The funny thing is that people are only invested in American confidence ... just numbers, that is it. So not everyone will lose all too much.
America has nothing tangible to offer and it really pisses me off.  Ron Paul is looking a lot better every day that passes since this collapse. I can't believe how much Dow dropped ... *Sigh*.
I wonder if this is the fall of capitalism as we know it.

Americans have to get their muscle up.

TBH, the more thought I put into it and talking to people and experiencing the force of regulation and government intervention.  It really needs to be one way or the other.  The way things work now it is now most regulation is based on selfishness and special interest.  That's what really messes things up.  It is now coming out that special interest had been leaning on the government to help poor people get into homes and banks were trying to figure out ways to make big profits out of that push.  The result is what you see now.

[Benito Mussolini]

But really you shouldn't do anything, every time you fuck with the market and try to fix it, you make it worse. The government trying to fix the market is like an incompetent surgeon trying to perform his art with mittens on.

My government (at the very least, tries to) makes the CAN$ stable, and I think it is succeding in its job.

I can't say the same about your government, the US$ has been going down for months, and with that happening, I don't think it's about to go back to it's original worth for a while.

Why should we bear the entire burden if everyone's welfare is at stake.

Why not? The American government can take care of other countries' democracy system, yet they can't take care of one of their own bank going bankrupt?
Why would the whole world pay for that? Banks here have help from the government so that doesn't happen, if your government doesn't help banks in trouble, it's your problem, not the world's.
Also, you are not bearing the entire burden, governments all around the world are making sure their economy is not crashing.

[quote author=CaffeinePowered link=topic=1498.msg41836#msg41836 date=1222716294]
Lesse Faire (french sp?) ftw

Laissez-faire
[/quote]

Pretty sure it's laisser faire...
Laissez faire would be more like "Nevermind", or rather "let go" as in an order.
The ftw makes me think it's Laisser faire, as in "let go" or non-interventionism.

There is also no way there would be a hyphen there...
Although I don't know what you crazy english speakers do with our perfect french words...

[cbre88x]

[quote author=CaffeinePowered link=topic=1498.msg41999#msg41999 date=1222794105]
But really you shouldn't do anything, every time you fuck with the market and try to fix it, you make it worse. The government trying to fix the market is like an incompetent surgeon trying to perform his art with mittens on.

My government (at the very least, tries to) makes the CAN$ stable, and I think it is succeding in its job.
I can't say the same about your government, the US$ has been going down for months, and with that happening, I don't think it's about to go back to it's original worth for a while.

Why should we bear the entire burden if everyone's welfare is at stake.

Why not? The American government can take care of other countries' democracy system, yet they can't take care of one of their own bank going bankrupt?
Why would the whole world pay for that? Banks here have help from the government so that doesn't happen, if your government doesn't help banks in trouble, it's your problem, not the world's.
Also, you are not bearing the entire burden, governments all around the world are making sure their economy is not crashing.

[quote author=CaffeinePowered link=topic=1498.msg41836#msg41836 date=1222716294]
Lesse Faire (french sp?) ftw

Laissez-faire
[/quote]
Pretty sure it's laisser faire...
Laissez faire would be more like "Nevermind", or rather "let go" as in an order.
The ftw makes me think it's Laisser faire, as in "let go" or non-interventionism.
There is also no way there would be a hyphen there...
Although I don't know what you crazy english speakers do with our perfect french words...
[/quote]

I smell Nationalism and I don't like it.

Also..American text books (if I remember correctly) spell it Laissez-faire, but it doesn't really matter considering trading a 'z' for an 's' isn't going to completely change it's meaning.

This is not the fault of the American people, other countries, or good ole Georgie. No, it is the highest powers of the banks/mortgage companies that want to make a few extra million dollars to help pay for their private jets. Unfortunately, not only do they pay for it in the end, but the American people do as well. It is a shame that our govt. is back to its era of corruption..using their powers to help the lowest denominator (the rich) keep a few million dollars so they can at least keep their multi-million mansions while my mother and father work their asses off to pay the bills and (thankfully) help my brother and myself get through college. It's a sad day, but it is about time everyone take responsibility for their poor choices and actions. This is why I believe the Bailout Bill should fail..because the U.S. govt. will be basically sending the middle and lower class to go fuck themselves in the ass.

So much for equality.

[ScottyGrayskull]

Maybe you or your government would care to take a share in the bailout, I mean after all, if its a global economy and the US Economy collapses, your economy is going to take a nose dive as well. Why should we bear the entire burden if everyone's welfare is at stake.

But really you shouldn't do anything, every time you fuck with the market and try to fix it, you make it worse. The government trying to fix the market is like an incompetent surgeon trying to perform his art with mittens on.

Heh, I was going to smite you until I read that second paragraph. Such handouts are what caused the current problem in the first place.

[Surf314]

Massive incoming copy-pasta but of interest to anyone following this issue

From Branch Banking & Trust Co.

September 23, 2008

Dear Senator/Congressman/Representative:

BB&T is a $136 billion multi-state banking company. We have 1,500 branches throughout the mid-Atlantic and southeast states. While we have been impacted by the real estate markets, we continue to have healthy profitability and a strong capital position.

We think it is important that Congress hear from the well run financial institutions as most of the concerns have been focused on the problem companies. It is inappropriate that the debate is largely being shaped by the financial institutions who made very poor decisions.

Attached are the issues that we believe are relevant from the perspective of healthy banks. Your consideration of these issues is greatly appreciated.

Sincerely, John Allison

Key Points on "Rescue" Plan From A Healthy Bank's Perspective

  1.

      Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are the primary cause of the mortgage crisis. These government supported enterprises distorted normal market risk mechanisms. While individual private financial institutions have made serious mistakes, the problems in the financial system have been caused by government policies including, affordable housing (now sub-prime), combined with the market disruptions caused by the Federal Reserve holding interest rates too low and then raising interest rates too high.
  2.

      There is no panic on Main Street and in sound financial institutions. The problems are in high-risk financial institutions and on Wall Street.
  3.

      While all financial intermediaries are being impacted by liquidity issues, this is primarily a bailout of poorly run financial institutions. It is extremely important that the bailout not damage well run companies.
  4.

      Corrections are not all bad. The market correction process eliminates irrational competitors. There were a number of poorly managed institutions and poorly made financial decisions during the real estate boom. It is important that any rules post "rescue" punish the poorly run institutions and not punish the well run companies.
  5.

      A significant and immediate tax credit for purchasing homes would be a far less expensive and more effective cure for the mortgage market and financial system than the proposed "rescue" plan.
  6.

      This is a housing value crisis. It does not make economic sense to purchase credit card loans, automobile loans, etc. The government should directly purchase housing assets, not real estate bonds. This would include lots and houses under construction.
  7.

      The guaranty of money funds by the U.S. Treasury creates enormous risk for the banking industry. Banks have been paying into the FDIC insurance fund since 1933. The fund has a limit of $100,000 per client. An arbitrary, "out of the blue" guarantee of money funds creates risk for the taxpayers and significantly distorts financial markets.
  8.

      Protecting the banking system, which is fundamentally controlled by the Federal Reserve, is an established government function. It is completely unclear why the government needs to or should bail out insurance companies, investment banks, hedge funds and foreign companies.
  9.

      It is extremely unclear how the government will price the problem real estate assets. Priced too low, the real estate markets will be worse off than if the bail ot did not exist. Priced too high, the taxpayers will take huge losses. Without a market price, how can you rationally determine value?
  10.

      The proposed bankruptcy "cram down" will severely negatively impact mortgage markets and will damage well run institutions. This will provide an incentive for homeowners who are able to pay their mortgages, but have a loss in their house, to take bankruptcy and force losses on banks. (Banks would not have received the gains had the house appreciated.) This will substantially increase the risk in mortgage lending and make mortgage pricing much higher in the future.
  11.

      Fair Value accounting should be changed immediately. It does not work when there are no market prices. If we had Fair Value accounting, as interpreted today, in the early 1990's the United States financial system would have crashed. Accounting should not drive economic activity, it should reflect it.
  12.

      The proposed new merger accounting rules should be deferred for at least five years. The new merger accounting rules are creating uncertainty for high quality companies who might potentially purchase weaker companies.
  13.

      The primary beneficiaries of the proposed rescue are Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley. The Treasury has a number of smart individuals, including Hank Paulson. However, Treasury is torally dominated by Wall Street investment bankers. They do not have knowledge of the commercial banking industry. Therefore, they can not be relied on to objectively assess all the implications of government policy on all financial intermediaries. The decision to protect the money funds is a clear example of a material lack of insight into the risk to the total financial system.
  14.

      Arbitrary limits on executive compensation will be self defeating. With these limits, only the failing financial institutions will participate in the "rescue", effectively making this plan a massive subsidy for incompetence. Also, how will companies attract the leadership talent to manage their business effectively with irrational compensation limits?

[Eschatos]

I stopped understanding the economy after fifth grade.  I still don't get what point there is to having a stock market.

[Surf314]

I stopped understanding the economy after fifth grade.  I still don't get what point there is to having a stock market.

???

[CaffeinePowered]

I stopped understanding the economy after fifth grade.  I still don't get what point there is to having a stock market.

Companies need money to do things, you buy a share in them.

Lets say a company is making a new video game, but they don't have the money to do it. They give their idea to the market and sell shares needed to fund that game. Lets say they need 1 million dollars, they then sell 1 million shares at $1 per share.

Lets say the game is a huge success and sells 1 million copies and after licensing fees and expenses, makes a profit of $10 per copy for the publisher. That means $10 million dollars in profit, they can then return that money to shareholders in the form of dividends, so every share gets $10 back on the $1 investment.

Does that make sense to you?

[exanimo]

If there is money to be made, something will be created to make money from it.  By supporting (profitable) companies, you get money, by trading currency, you get money.  I think we invest too much into it to be honest.  We need more tangible currency (ie gold, metal, wood, products).  

I thought it was sad that when America put a ban on selling products to North Korea, mostly all we could ban were iPods and Alcohol.  We're not making anything anymore, and anything we do make is disposable shit. I can't tell you how many times I've bought something, thought it was shit and made in China, looked at the bottom and was disappointed to find that it was made in the US.

[Eschatos]

[quote author=Eschatos link=topic=1498.msg42207#msg42207 date=1222874533]
I stopped understanding the economy after fifth grade.  I still don't get what point there is to having a stock market.

Companies need money to do things, you buy a share in them.

Lets say a company is making a new video game, but they don't have the money to do it. They give their idea to the market and sell shares needed to fund that game. Lets say they need 1 million dollars, they then sell 1 million shares at $1 per share.

Lets say the game is a huge success and sells 1 million copies and after licensing fees and expenses, makes a profit of $10 per copy for the publisher. That means $10 million dollars in profit, they can then return that money to shareholders in the form of dividends, so every share gets $10 back on the $1 investment.

Does that make sense to you?
[/quote]

Yeah, but I don't get the part where the stockholders tell the company what to do and push short term profit above everything else.  I know I'm dumb, but that's the impression I get when I watch the news and hear about huge companies failing.

[Surf314]

I like this excerpt:

Greenspan listened to the give-and-take with impatience. Yes, yes, we know all that. “I get back to corporate financial policy:dividends, stock options, incentives.”

He wanted the causal logic he and O’Neill embraced to be so compelling it could not be denied. “Before 1980, share buybacks were discouraged,” Greenspan said. “Returns were driven by dividends. Earnings are a very dubious measure…” And he began to pull apart the gold standard — earnings per share — that drove markets, expectations, hope and fear. There are so many tools a CEO can use to “craft” an earnings statement, so many ways to mislead. “All asset values, after all, are just based on a forecast…” The group was following his every word, but the chairman did not see in their gazes an outrage to match his own. He clapped his hand on the table and raised his voice. “There’s been too much gaming of the system until it is broke. Capitalism is not working! There has been a corrupting of the system of capitalism.”

TBH I doubt anyone really understands the stock market anymore.  Part of it is an arm's race between accountants and analysts.  It's a key part of the issue we are having.

[Dave]

hey america, just go back to a trade system where you berter goods, problem solved.

[Surf314]

hey america, just go back to a trade system where you berter goods, problem solved.

The rubber ducky system?

[Dave]

[quote author=Dave link=topic=1498.msg42226#msg42226 date=1222875665]
hey america, just go back to a trade system where you berter goods, problem solved.

The rubber ducky system?


[/quote]


im gonna claim a coloquialism.

[Benito Mussolini]

[quote author=Benito Mussolini link=topic=1498.msg42096#msg42096 date=1222822746]
[quote author=CaffeinePowered link=topic=1498.msg41999#msg41999 date=1222794105]
But really you shouldn't do anything, every time you fuck with the market and try to fix it, you make it worse. The government trying to fix the market is like an incompetent surgeon trying to perform his art with mittens on.

My government (at the very least, tries to) makes the CAN$ stable, and I think it is succeding in its job.
I can't say the same about your government, the US$ has been going down for months, and with that happening, I don't think it's about to go back to it's original worth for a while.

Why should we bear the entire burden if everyone's welfare is at stake.

Why not? The American government can take care of other countries' democracy system, yet they can't take care of one of their own bank going bankrupt?
Why would the whole world pay for that? Banks here have help from the government so that doesn't happen, if your government doesn't help banks in trouble, it's your problem, not the world's.
Also, you are not bearing the entire burden, governments all around the world are making sure their economy is not crashing.

[quote author=CaffeinePowered link=topic=1498.msg41836#msg41836 date=1222716294]
Lesse Faire (french sp?) ftw

Laissez-faire
[/quote]
Pretty sure it's laisser faire...
Laissez faire would be more like "Nevermind", or rather "let go" as in an order.
The ftw makes me think it's Laisser faire, as in "let go" or non-interventionism.
There is also no way there would be a hyphen there...
Although I don't know what you crazy english speakers do with our perfect french words...
[/quote]

I smell Nationalism and I don't like it.

Also..American text books (if I remember correctly) spell it Laissez-faire, but it doesn't really matter considering trading a 'z' for an 's' isn't going to completely change it's meaning.

This is not the fault of the American people, other countries, or good ole Georgie. No, it is the highest powers of the banks/mortgage companies that want to make a few extra million dollars to help pay for their private jets. Unfortunately, not only do they pay for it in the end, but the American people do as well. It is a shame that our govt. is back to its era of corruption..using their powers to help the lowest denominator (the rich) keep a few million dollars so they can at least keep their multi-million mansions while my mother and father work their asses off to pay the bills and (thankfully) help my brother and myself get through college. It's a sad day, but it is about time everyone take responsibility for their poor choices and actions. This is why I believe the Bailout Bill should fail..because the U.S. govt. will be basically sending the middle and lower class to go fuck themselves in the ass.

So much for equality.
[/quote]

I MADE NICE PARAGRAPHS AND YOU BROKE THEM

[Surf314]

You know duck's post in the lulz thread made me realize a good fix for this is to legalize marijuana.  A new industry over night.  Lots of jobs created.  A new source of tax revenue.  Then once unemployment drops we can start releasing all the non-violent offenders from jail and lower the cost of the prison system.

Just a thought.

[KarthXLR]

You know duck's post in the lulz thread made me realize a good fix for this is to legalize marijuana.  A new industry over night.  Lots of jobs created.  A new source of tax revenue.  Then once unemployment drops we can start releasing all the non-violent offenders from jail and lower the cost of the prison system.

Just a thought.

...just a random fact, did you know that marijuana is twice as likely to cause lung cancer than cigarretes are?