debating neocon friends, halp plz

[Versus]

James voted "Yes" in the Universal Healthcare Poll. 68,747 people have already cast their vote.

Question: "Are you in favor of a government run healthcare system?"

"John ********
James you are an idiot"

"James Goodrich
hi my name is every other industrialized country"

"James Goodrich
Keith Olbermann Special Comment Healthcare 10/07/09

watch this and say that with a straight face"

"John ********
wow that is pretty powerful... but he was also able to save his dad cuz he had the money... He was able to pay for the best... and i know prices are 2 high... but stick the government in the mix you may not get the best. You get whoever they choose for you to get... plus if docs get paid less then there will be less incentive to be a doc. next thing you know we got a doctor shortage and then our health care goes to the crapper... then even people like you and me who have the ability to take care of ourselves wont be able to..

the government cant even handle the power they currently have... the last thing we need is to give them more power... the last thing we need is them more involved in our lives... more government is the last thing we need...

plus Universal Healthcare is gonna cost a Heck of a lot... Where is that money gonna come from? I know i dont wanna give up half my paycheck... ... Read More

ok el fin... I am through with this conversation"

"James Goodrich
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/052220...ript2.html

BILL MOYERS: But why in the dozen or so hearings that I've tracked in Washington recently on health care reform have there been so few advocates of the single-payer?

DR. SIDNEY WOLFE: The seats at the table, or the witnesses at the hearing are, in a sense, controlled by the health insurance industry. They don't want someone essentially saying, "We don't need a health insurance industry. We can do what most other countries in the world have done. Have the government collect the money and pay the bills and get rid of all these people who are wasting $400 billion a year on excessive administrative costs."

"James Goodrich
that would be just as good."

"James Goodrich
Hospitals remain privately owned and operated. Doctors remain mostly in private practice."

"John ********
do you honestly think that money wont be RIPPED from your own wallets? let's be honest when was the last time a government program worked the way it was supposed to?"

"James Goodrich
what do you think medicare is?"

"Philip ********
James have you taken a look at cancer survival rates by country lately? There's a reason why other countries fly heads of state here for treatment instead of having procedures done in there own country. Private industry provides better results due to incentives.

Yeah, and it's definitely a good idea to fall in line with what every other country is doing right? That's definitely the mark of a leader.

Do you fancy waiting a year or more to be assigned to a gp as a young person like in Canade? How about being driven around in an ambulance while in danger if dying while they try to locate the hostpital with the shortest waiting list.... Read More

People need to realize that healthcare is actually a privilege and not a right. Doctors go through the training they do by choice. They provide a service and there is a price on that. The more government you inject into something, the less efficient it tends to run. If someone stands to benefit, incentives to run things more efficiently and with better results are there.

These sorts of plans propose that doctors run less "unnecessary" tests, but fail to adress tort reform. If doctors can't protect themselves from lawsuits by being absolutely sure of their diagnoses through tests, malpractice must be examined.

As far as I'm concerned, the last group of people we want to mess with is the group that works to save our lives. If you or your family needed a life saving procedure, I'm sure you'd change your tune. At that point, the ONLY thing that matters is the result. The saving of a life trumps the physician's compensation. Oh, and is there a better idustry to designate high compensation to than the one that cheats death?"

"Philip ********
Medicare is a horribly inefficient money sink. Many doctors refuse to take it...yes, refuse to take medicare, because medicare does't even come close to compensating fairly. You act like private practice is a terrible thing. Private industry is the primary reason why this country is where it is today. And I'm talking big picture, like per capita ... Read Moreinome and quality of life. This anti capitalism progressive push is a quick way to fall from being a world leader. I hope the moral world saving feeling everyor gets from all this is worth it. Big government proframs and socialism have never worked in a big way before, and that's not going to change now. It's all part of the viscious cycle that is politics. This will last for a while, then people will get upset and align themselves more conservatively, and the cycle will continue, like it always has. "

edit: oh and they claim to be christian too, lulz.

[chronomaster]

You know with today's insurance, you get what they choose for you, too.

Also, if people haven't seen the latest news, we're not exactly leader material, unless you want to learn how to lead your country to economic despair.

[shoopfox]

"Big government proframs and socialism have never worked in a big way before"

inb4 The New Deal, the highway program, VA hospitals etc.

[beep beep diglett]

if they're christian remind them their book says every life is sacred, and that this will help save some lives

if they bitch about the cost, remind them a life is priceless

biiiiig winner

[Surf314]

They are voting to fix medicare right now and neocons are hassling them for that too. When it was originally passed some formula was flawed and over time it started to underpay doctors more and more. Every year they vote on a temporary fix and the actual fix becomes more expensive. Right now they were working on a permanent fix that would prevent medicare from underpaying doctors anymore but neocons are calling it a give-a-way by democrats so they will support their healthcare.

Massachussetts is a universal healthcare state, they require everyone to have healthcare and doctor's favor it by 70%. Only 12% of doctor's are against it. They had no remarkable capacity problems.

The US is not doing anything close to the Canada or UK system, I wish people would stop bringing it up but I think its the only leg to stand on or maybe they are just parroting whatever their radio and TV personalities tell them. UK and Canada have universal health insurance, we had a public option to help cover people that would have trouble getting into the private system for various reasons. Not to mention that a healthcare bill without any stipulation against the insurance industry is a huge subsidy. We are making people become their customers and cutting their costs without requiring them to reduce their premiums. When we gave money with no strings to banks they paid out huge bonuses and everyone bitched, why do we want to do that again with the insurance industry? They threatened to raise their rates 111% under the Bawcus bill (the one without the public option by the guy that had huge insurance industry fundraisers recently) because they didn't get everything they wanted.

Fact check those cancer rate numbers, supposedly they aren't calculated on the same standards and we include a lot of benign cancers in ours as "cured" that some other countries don't. Also look at the other numbers, they are obviously picking cancer because they think it is in their favor but it is definitely not the only life threatening illness. Also bring up bankruptcy rates for medical reasons. We have huge rates of people going bankrupt to pay for their own medical care, and the figure I got quoted was 80% of those people are insured. Look up the Al Franken video where he lays the smack down on the bitch bringing up that France, Germany and I think the Netherlands have 0 people going bankrupt for medical reasons. Also bring up the people that get thrown out of the system for shitty reasons like women that have been raped and are prescribed a cycle of anti-HIV just in case and become un-insurable even after they test negative for HIV for up to 3 years because of red flags. HuffPo has a part of their site dedicated to people writing in the effed up shit that they have to go through.

[CaffeinePowered]

US Postal service doesn't seem to put UPS or FedEX out of business, nor is it a "government take over of mail". Its actually semi-efficient and stands on its own, but its problems stem from being crowded out by email and other forms of instant communication.

[rumsfald]

"John ********
wow that is pretty powerful... but he was also able to save his dad cuz he had the money... He was able to pay for the best... and i know prices are 2 high... but stick the government in the mix you may not get the best. You get whoever they choose for you to get... plus if docs get paid less then there will be less incentive to be a doc. next thing you know we got a doctor shortage and then our health care goes to the crapper... then even people like you and me who have the ability to take care of ourselves wont be able to..

It’s been at least 20 years since a doctor has practiced
in Armstrong County, in the Texas panhandle. And
there’s no point in the county’s 2,000 residents driving
north to neighboring Carson County or south to Briscoe
County to see a doctor. No physician practices in
those counties either.
In many rural counties across the country, it’s easier to
rent a video or check out a book from a public library
than to find a doctor to provide medical treatment....

Several studies by medical groups have
concluded the U.S. will need between 85,000 and 200,000
additional physicians by 2020. As the shortage of physicians
becomes more widespread, rural areas—those already facing
severe shortages—are likely to be hit hardest.

rummy: ooops, looks like we already have shortages under his "free market" philosophy.

"John ********the government cant even handle the power they currently have... the last thing we need is them more involved in our lives...

rummy: so how does he feel about gay marriage? copyright extension? teaching creationism in schools? medical marijuana? prostitution (if you give it for free, no crime, but if you try to charge the free market rate, then crime)? removing selective service? the draft? Those are all areas where conservative governments have gotten more involved in people's lives.

"John ********
plus Universal Healthcare is gonna cost a Heck of a lot... Where is that money gonna come from? I know i dont wanna give up half my paycheck... ...

rummy: because it is better to save half of each paycheck now and then to not have to worry about being bankrupt later when you or your family gets sick.

"Philip ********
James have you taken a look at cancer survival rates by country lately? There's a reason why other countries fly heads of state here for treatment instead of having procedures done in there own country.

rummy: It's the same reason why people in our own country have to travel hundreds or thousands of miles to get treatment instead of having procedures done in their locality. See above about physician shortages.

Yeah, and it's definitely a good idea to fall in line with what every other country is doing right? That's definitely the mark of a leader.

rummy: almost not worth responding to this, he makes it clear he isn't playing fair (like John), but making shit up. leadership is having the courage to follow one's convictions and inspire others to do the same, including admitting that someone else might have come up with a good idea before you.

Caveman Phillip: Ugg, everyone is walking upright now, but I am going to show I am a leader by continuing to drag my knuckles.

Phillip.
People need to realize that healthcare is actually a privilege and not a right.

rummy: The first sentence of democracy is:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."



I consider the ability to have "healthcare" to directly affect my right to have a happy and free life.

Phillip
Doctors go through the training they do by choice. They provide a service and there is a price on that. The more government you inject into something, the less efficient it tends to run. If someone stands to benefit, incentives to run things more efficiently and with better results are there.

rummy: that's not the lesson I learned from this mortgage crisis. Also, why doesn't he go talk to physicians who go through ~10 years of grueling training in order to learn how to save lives and ask them how they feel when they aren't able to provide treatment to many that select few are able to afford. Imagine, having the power and knowledge to save a life but being prevented from using it because the patient in front of you had the misfortune of being born into a working class family.

"Philip ********
Big government proframs and socialism have never worked in a big way before, and that's not going to change now.

rummy: if you are charged with a crime, and cannot afford an attorney, the government provides one for you. If you get sick, and cannot afford a physician, why should one not be provided for you?

[Surf314]

Also there was a doctor who tried to start a payment plan where he charged a monthly fee and would see his patients anytime they wanted inclusive of that fee. They blocked him from this shortly after saying he was "providing health insurance without the right to do so." Guess who was at the forefront of getting that stopped.

[Luinbariel]

Hm, that reminds me. The ONLY reason my small home town even has doctors is because the government gives them some super sweet incentives to work in a small rural town for x number of years. If they didn't; no one would go.

[Luca Shoal]

I <3 rummy so hard.

[Versus]

holy fuck rummy, thanks. <3 you so much.

[Geoff]

James, let me ask you something.  Why do you of all people even have neocon friends?  Christ man.

[CaffeinePowered]

James, let me ask you something.  Why do you of all people even have neocon friends?  Christ man.

I also thought they didn't exist in California, crossing the state line causes them to burst into flames

[Luinbariel]

James, let me ask you something.  Why do you of all people even have neocon friends?  Christ man.

Sometimes you don't know 'til it's too late.

Here, let me give you this questionnaire to fill out before I officially accept your friend application...

[Benito Mussolini]

People need to realize that healthcare is actually a privilege and not a right.

Man, this guy is better than Grey.

Does he give any show? I'd totally go see this guy, it took me at least 5 minutes to stop laughing. In fact, I almost died of laughter... good thing I can get health anytime without paying any fee.

[Scary Womanizing Pig Mask]

James, let me ask you something.  Why do you of all people even have neocon friends?  Christ man.

Because he's a rich Texan?

[Versus]

"Unrtunately James, you don't get to demand the services of another individual just because you feel like you're entitled to it. The world doesn't work that way. It obviously sounds bad to think of healthcare as a 'good', but in order to finance it and make rational policy decisions, we have to treat it that way. Free speach and healthcare are two different things. Healthcare is a privilege in this case because it involves someone else committing their time to provide a service to you. This debate cannot be fought on moral grounds. It's unfortunate, but we can't afford (literally) to do so. Our healthcare system has huge flaws, I don't argue against that, but there are inherent flaws in the way we examine this issue.

Of course no human life is more valuable than another, but who pays for the level of treatment we all want? You can't force doctors to go to school and treat you at lower compensation and with less autonomy. People who think doctors go to medical school completely out of altruism are misguided. The profession attracts great minds because of the ability to help people, in addition to stellar job security, compensation, and in private practice, relatively good autonomy.

And who's financing this? Ohh I know...let's tax the wealthy. They won't cut jobs on anything to compensate. Right."

note: this kid is an only child and his parents live in a 9000 square foot house. no, he's not richer than my family.

[Luinbariel]

"Unrtunately James, you don't get to demand the services of another individual just because you feel like you're entitled to it. The world doesn't work that way. It obviously sounds bad to think of healthcare as a 'good', but in order to finance it and make rational policy decisions, we have to treat it that way. Free speach and healthcare are two different things. Healthcare is a privilege in this case because it involves someone else committing their time to provide a service to you. This debate cannot be fought on moral grounds. It's unfortunate, but we can't afford (literally) to do so. Our healthcare system has huge flaws, I don't argue against that, but there are inherent flaws in the way we examine this issue.

Of course no human life is more valuable than another, but who pays for the level of treatment we all want? You can't force doctors to go to school and treat you at lower compensation and with less autonomy. People who think doctors go to medical school completely out of altruism are misguided. The profession attracts great minds because of the ability to help people, in addition to stellar job security, compensation, and in private practice, relatively good autonomy.

And who's financing this? Ohh I know...let's tax the wealthy. They won't cut jobs on anything to compensate. Right."

note: this kid is an only child and his parents live in a 9000 square foot house. no, he's not richer than my family.

I said something to that effect in IRC earlier today; <Luinbariel> it sounds like a rich kid to me

[chronomaster]

"Unrtunately James, you don't get to demand the services of another individual just because you feel like you're entitled to it. The world doesn't work that way. It obviously sounds bad to think of healthcare as a 'good', but in order to finance it and make rational policy decisions, we have to treat it that way. Free speach and healthcare are two different things. Healthcare is a privilege in this case because it involves someone else committing their time to provide a service to you. This debate cannot be fought on moral grounds. It's unfortunate, but we can't afford (literally) to do so. Our healthcare system has huge flaws, I don't argue against that, but there are inherent flaws in the way we examine this issue.

Of course no human life is more valuable than another, but who pays for the level of treatment we all want? You can't force doctors to go to school and treat you at lower compensation and with less autonomy. People who think doctors go to medical school completely out of altruism are misguided. The profession attracts great minds because of the ability to help people, in addition to stellar job security, compensation, and in private practice, relatively good autonomy.

And who's financing this? Ohh I know...let's tax the wealthy. They won't cut jobs on anything to compensate. Right."

note: this kid is an only child and his parents live in a 9000 square foot house. no, he's not richer than my family.

He says this like we're asking doctors to work for free.

Food is a necessity life. We subsidize and regulate farming to control prices so they don't skyrocket out of the reach of normal people, causing them to bankrupt themselves or seek dirty methods just to stay alive. We still have people in that industry around because they profit from subsidies and revenue generated from sale. Naturally everyone is taxed to fulfill the subsidies, but since they all benefit, who cares? However, I wouldn't recommend pointing this out. After all, who wants to believe that the government helps stimulate a necessary industry successfully?

Healthcare is just as much of a necessity to the wellness of our nation as is food. Should our nation not be well, our efficiency on the whole drops, and everyone suffers. Such needs should be fulfilled, and the burden borne by everyone, thus making it a minor burden indeed.

[rumsfald]

"Unrtunately James, you don't get to demand the services of another individual just because you feel like you're entitled to it."

Except: Public defenders. Police. EMT's and ambulances. Firefighters. Coast guard and other military search and rescue when some trust fund twat gets their superspeedboat caught in a storm or who gets lost while hiking up mt. hood in shorts.