Team Fortress: Veterans vs. Neophytes

[CaffeinePowered]

I like my curves fairly large Exan, not as ridiculous as something like Eve, but the older spammy bhop FPS games were gold to me. Even if I knew I would never be top-dog in terms of conc jumping, I still had a ridiculous amount of fun. Also TF2 leagues are floundering because things like ubers really fuck with competitive play. At its height STA's 9v9 TFC league had something like 50+ clans and a huge tier, Plat - Gold - Silver - Bronze - Bronze II.

[Surf314]

I dunno, I like games multi-player that are skill heavy.  I always approach them like a puzzle.  When I'm getting my ass handed to me by a skilled player I sort of try and evaluate what he is doing, how it is being effective against me and what I can do to best him.  Usually it involves doing something completely unpredictable.  Or predicting what they are going to do and making sure there is a rocket there to greet them when they arrive.

But I like games that are made with lots of playing field-leveling devices.  Like smash.  Then I can just turn off the overly-analytical part of my brain and have fun.

I'm also a big fan of stories, true AI can get boring but give me a good story in a game and I'm hooked.  The best is when they can give you a complete experience like in Psychonauts.  I mean these games are generally only good for a play through, but to me its like reading a good book, or seeing a movie.

[copulatingduck]

I dunno, I like games multi-player that are skill heavy.  I always approach them like a puzzle.  When I'm getting my ass handed to me by a skilled player I sort of try and evaluate what he is doing, how it is being effective against me and what I can do to best him.  Usually it involves doing something completely unpredictable.  Or predicting what they are going to do and making sure there is a rocket there to greet them when they arrive.

But I like games that are made with lots of playing field-leveling devices.  Like smash.  Then I can just turn off the overly-analytical part of my brain and have fun.

I'm also a big fan of stories, true AI can get boring but give me a good story in a game and I'm hooked.  The best is when they can give you a complete experience like in Psychonauts.  I mean these games are generally only good for a play through, but to me its like reading a good book, or seeing a movie.

Speaking of which, I'm really loving that game. I found it at the Dollar Store.

[HuckBerryGee]

I don't know, i have blanks, I know I played it, but I don't think I got very deep into it, played it for 2 months and ditched it for another fps. All I know is they play nothing like one another.

also, the insane concussion hopping almost felt "no items, fox only, final destination". I could do it to an extent, but then again, I was never into wavedashing(in brawl) and speed dashing in that shitty game gunz. Playing in a surgical way disamuse me.

[ScottyGrayskull]

TF2 isn't my first, but I only briefly played before so I voted that.

Honestly I didn't care for TFC. I liked the idea, but the gap between a new player versus veteran players threw me off. It just wasn't newbie friendly. Although I had slow ass dial up at the time, and pretty much gave up on online gaming for a while because of it. I might like it now that I have high speed.

[CaffeinePowered]

the gap between a new player versus veteran players threw me off. It just wasn't newbie friendly.

This gap is directly proportional to how long a game's lifespan is, why do you think TF2, a hugely anticipated game is somewhat floundering right now? The leagues that started at inception have all but dried up and there isn't exactly a flood of newbies continuing to come to the game.

Why do you think Eve still has a hugely loyal player base that continues with the game despite the enormous skill gap?

If you don't have a proper end game or top-tier skills that are very very difficult to master  people lose interest very quickly. As much as I like TF2, I don't feel theres anything left for me to learn how to do, no top-skill tricks that can be mastered. Makes general pubbing without you guys exhaustingly boring.

[rumsfald]

If you don't have a proper end game or top-tier skills that are very very difficult to master  people lose interest very quickly.

I think that's a perception based on the fact that the individual classes are more balanced than almost any otherteam-based FPS.  The depth isn't really in the individual classes because, for the most part, the individual game-breaking skills have been disabled (uber-saving, Engie no-build zones (heights), soldier/demo nerf). 

I think the TF2 end-game is all about team-based tactics (involving 3 or more players, beyond just heavy+medic).  The teams that try hard and practice will be able to pull of some massive steamrolling, but it will be more like MMO raiding with everyone pitching in than a cluster of individual heroics (CS).  Teamwork is the top-tier skills that are difficult to master.

[ainmosni]

[quote author=CaffeinePowered link=topic=189.msg4783#msg4783 date=1209427023]
If you don't have a proper end game or top-tier skills that are very very difficult to master  people lose interest very quickly.

I think that's a perception based on the fact that the individual classes are more balanced than almost any otherteam-based FPS.  The depth isn't really in the individual classes because, for the most part, the individual game-breaking skills have been disabled (uber-saving, Engie no-build zones (heights), soldier/demo nerf). 

I think the TF2 end-game is all about team-based tactics (involving 3 or more players, beyond just heavy+medic).   The teams that try hard and practice will be able to pull of some massive steamrolling, but it will be more like MMO raiding with everyone pitching in than a cluster of individual heroics (CS).  Teamwork is the top-tier skills that are difficult to master.
[/quote]

Yah I agree here, tf2 seems to be built on real teamwork where if the team works together well they'll steamroll over a team that doesn't work together as well. Hell, even an uber can be countered if the team works together well enough... Even on FNF we're very low on teamwork so we're still not there yet.

[Versus]

Well-placed stickies own the hell out of an uber.

[ainmosni]

Concentrating a few rockets on the medic who's giving the uber also helps in breaking up the uber.

[ScottyGrayskull]

[quote author=ScottyGrayskull link=topic=189.msg4782#msg4782 date=1209426360]
the gap between a new player versus veteran players threw me off. It just wasn't newbie friendly.

This gap is directly proportional to how long a game's lifespan is, why do you think TF2, a hugely anticipated game is somewhat floundering right now? The leagues that started at inception have all but dried up and there isn't exactly a flood of newbies continuing to come to the game.

Why do you think Eve still has a hugely loyal player base that continues with the game despite the enormous skill gap?

If you don't have a proper end game or top-tier skills that are very very difficult to master  people lose interest very quickly. As much as I like TF2, I don't feel theres anything left for me to learn how to do, no top-skill tricks that can be mastered. Makes general pubbing without you guys exhaustingly boring.
[/quote]

That is a good point Caff. Casual games can last a long time because of the pick up and play aspect, but there usually isn't much of a community behind it since most people don't stick it out for the long run. Hopefully the updates for all the classes will spark more interest.

I'm just bummed about games with such skill gaps because I rarely have the time these days to put into a game to get that level of skill, so I'm usually on the outside wishing I could at least hold my own. Heck, if I wasn't already somewhat proficient with first person shooters I probably would've sold my copy of CoD4 and moved away from TF2 by now. :p

[ToiletDuck]

i've played TFC but not enough to consider myself a 'veteran'. TF2 has stoled my life though ;D

[Kor]

I have to agree that the new unlocks will create some additional diversity in TF2, in addition to creating a skill gap. Consider that Valve wants to milk TF2 for as long as possible; to do so, you'll need something that people will play for years: queue the league-play solution. After all the unlocks are finished and you have at least a half-dozen new Valve stock maps, You'll see that divide grow to a point where there will be the same divide that existed in TFC.

Call me elitist but you can't enjoy a FPS competitively unless there's some advanced skill set to hone.

[copulatingduck]

[quote author=CaffeinePowered link=topic=189.msg4783#msg4783 date=1209427023]
If you don't have a proper end game or top-tier skills that are very very difficult to master  people lose interest very quickly.

I think that's a perception based on the fact that the individual classes are more balanced than almost any otherteam-based FPS.  The depth isn't really in the individual classes because, for the most part, the individual game-breaking skills have been disabled (uber-saving, Engie no-build zones (heights), soldier/demo nerf). 

I think the TF2 end-game is all about team-based tactics (involving 3 or more players, beyond just heavy+medic).  The teams that try hard and practice will be able to pull of some massive steamrolling, but it will be more like MMO raiding with everyone pitching in than a cluster of individual heroics (CS).  Teamwork is the top-tier skills that are difficult to master.
[/quote]

I agree completely. The only thing that keeps this game interesting is the teamplay. The teamplay skills are the only real skills that I feel like I have left to master. Lately I've gotten bored with straight TF2, so I've thrown old tactics out the window. You'd be surprised how well you can do if you're just goofing around with at least one other teammate. Even just screwing around can get you to the top of the boards.

[Eschatos]

I still haven't mastered some medium level skills, like rocket/bomb jumping.

[DrkAdonis]

Man. Sounds like we need a night of TF2telage for teaching some things.

I've played TF2 since it came out (not always on the DToid server), but I still feel pretty n00bish. I'd totally be for a night of instructions/practice.

[Kor]

Man. Sounds like we need a night of TF2telage for teaching some things.

I've played TF2 since it came out (not always on the DToid server), but I still feel pretty n00bish. I'd totally be for a night of instructions/practice.

Careful what you ask for, I'll teach you how to catch skill rockets with your teeth.

[DrkAdonis]

[quote author=DrkAdonis link=topic=189.msg4891#msg4891 date=1209505849]
Man. Sounds like we need a night of TF2telage for teaching some things.

I've played TF2 since it came out (not always on the DToid server), but I still feel pretty n00bish. I'd totally be for a night of instructions/practice.

Careful what you ask for, I'll teach you how to catch skill rockets with your teeth.
[/quote]

But... but...

That doesn't sound fun OR helpful!

[Versus]

Certaintly fun to watch. ;D

[Fail Medic]

About half the forum population voted (32 / 78) and looks like we have a 2:1 ratio of neophytes to veterans.

Thanks for voting and discussing!