BRB #1 Rotation Horseshit/Bullshit/Pile of Shit.

[Radio Raheem]

I like Aerox's suggestion, but I feel like Mach4 is over played and if we want a custom CTF map in there I'd go with 2docks, geothermal, impact2, or something else.

every time ive seen 2 docks come up it has emptied the server or been rocked within 2 minutes.

I might as well chime in.


This would be my ideal rotation:

Turbine
Dustbowl
Mach 4
Goldrush
Labor Steel
Gravelpit
2Fort (I know a lot of people don't like it, but it fills the server and it's really not that bad if you get two good teams on it)
Freight
Badwater
Stag ROTATING CUSTOM (This still makes the map testing we do in TFT relevant, and will keep people from getting TOO bored at least with the exact same rotation. One rotating spot for a really good custom I think is a good idea. Rotating once every two weeks or once a month is what I envision.)

8 of those maps are completely ruined by engineers. please add some 5 point cp maps to counter this. turtle fests suck and having the entire rotation consist of engineer wars is lame.

[Wedge]

90% of maps are ruined by (too many) engineers, get over it.  I've NEVER had a problem with having engineer's capped to 2 anyways.  I'd actually love that.

[Aerox]

90% of maps are ruined by (too many) engineers, get over it.  I've NEVER had a problem with having engineer's capped to 2 anyways.  I'd actually love that.

Is a stricter class limit cap on Engies something we want to consider then? I'm not even sure where we stand right now with class limits.

[JoKeRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR]

Is a stricter class limit cap on Engies something we want to consider then? I'm not even sure where we stand right now with class limits.

Yes. One would be nice

[Aerox]

1 is a little low, especially for maps like Gravelpit where you have to defend 2 points. If we DID put a cap on Engies, I think 2 would probably be ideal.

Although, that introduces another problem of 3 ubers basically being unstoppable. It's kind of a tricky situation. I've also found on a number of maps (particularly ones without good sniper sightlines) that 3 heavy-medic combos are basically unstoppable. Would we want to lower medic limit as well so that ubers don't outnumber sentries? Is that going too far? That seems kind of extreme, but class limits introduce a whole host of new balance issues...

So complicated!

[Radio Raheem]

90% of maps are ruined by (too many) engineers, get over it.  I've NEVER had a problem with having engineer's capped to 2 anyways.  I'd actually love that.

attack defend maps are always ruined by it. 5 point cp push maps atleast have a chance assuming they dont have retarded last points (labor, fastlane) or even second points (warpath)

its really rare to see granary or badlands turn into a engie fest

[Aerox]

[quote author=Wedge link=topic=2637.msg75249#msg75249 date=1239139117]
90% of maps are ruined by (too many) engineers, get over it.  I've NEVER had a problem with having engineer's capped to 2 anyways.  I'd actually love that.

attack defend maps are always ruined by it. 5 point cp push maps atleast have a chance assuming they dont have retarded last points (labor, fastlane) or even second points (warpath)

its really rare to see granary or badlands turn into a engie fest
[/quote]

You're right, but I think that tends to happen a whole lot more on serious competitive play. When we're just messing around, it never seems to be much of an issue (especially if there are pubs around in the server).

You have valid concerns, but given the kind of random pickup "jump in anytime and play" nature that we're looking for with the rotation, I don't know if cutting out large swathes of maps because a super organized team can turtle on them is necessarily the way to go.

I should also add that it's my understanding that the rotation would be totally out the window for TFT and FNF and we would play whatever we wanted. This is more of just ways to fill up the server when it's dead and we want to jump into a quick game.

[Versus]

engies are rare in competitive play except for maybe a couple of maps, and it's a single engie

[Aerox]

Oh, heh, then I guess I'm just talking out of my ass since I generally avoid the competitive stuff. I assumed that's where it was being seen all the time, since when I play on #1 I usually find the attackers breaking through sentries on most of those maps. C on Gravelpit can pose a problem (Especially when duck builds his stupid sentry on the roof ), but I've also seen good spies take out sentries pretty easily there, especially if it's coordinated with an attack. Admittedly, 2fort can get kind of shitty with sentries, but it's one of the quickest and easiest ways to fill up the server. Maybe setting the map timer lower just for 2Fort is a good idea?

Turbine matches usually go pretty quickly, since any sentries in the flag room are usually close enough together for 1 uber and a couple assists to take them all out. Final point of Goldrush can be a bit difficult, but I don't have a huge problem with that since it's the final point and there's numerous ways in and out of the defending area. The flag area of Impact doesn't lend well to a sentry farm, and usually it's not too long before the flag gets capped there.

I'm not the biggest fan of sentries in general, but unfortunately they're a part of the game. I also don't even necessarily mind losing to a sentry farm, because it's likely if my team actually worked together and coordinated shit we would have been able to break it anyway. In the however long I've been playing TF2, I've consistently found that, while people generally work pretty well together as a team (covering each other, each person playing their role, etc.), the vast majority of teams still have serious trouble actually coming up with a plan in the first place and enacting it. Sure, when 8 people on a team charge at a point they can work pretty well together to take shit down, but it might have been easier in the first place if a bunch of them switched to medic and they built up ubers.

[Radio Raheem]

[quote author=Radio Raheem link=topic=2637.msg75256#msg75256 date=1239140283]
[quote author=Wedge link=topic=2637.msg75249#msg75249 date=1239139117]
90% of maps are ruined by (too many) engineers, get over it.  I've NEVER had a problem with having engineer's capped to 2 anyways.  I'd actually love that.

attack defend maps are always ruined by it. 5 point cp push maps atleast have a chance assuming they dont have retarded last points (labor, fastlane) or even second points (warpath)

its really rare to see granary or badlands turn into a engie fest
[/quote]

You're right, but I think that tends to happen a whole lot more on serious competitive play. When we're just messing around, it never seems to be much of an issue (especially if there are pubs around in the server).

You have valid concerns, but given the kind of random pickup "jump in anytime and play" nature that we're looking for with the rotation, I don't know if cutting out large swathes of maps because a super organized team can turtle on them is necessarily the way to go.

I should also add that it's my understanding that the rotation would be totally out the window for TFT and FNF and we would play whatever we wanted. This is more of just ways to fill up the server when it's dead and we want to jump into a quick game.
[/quote]

no i know what you want im just saying most of those maps are very easy to turtle. considering its a public server there wont be any teamwork therefore the engineer (and defense in general) has a huge advantage.

this makes it really frustrating to be on an attacking team with mostly morons who run into the same sentry over and over. 5 point push maps are atleast fair as in neither side has a giant advantage and there are generally ways around the sentry rather than a giant chokepoint where even if you get a clear shot on one of the many engies you have to deal with massive amounts of spam and pyros.

obviously i dont know what im talking about since goldrush and dustbowl are so hugely popular but i dont understand how running into a wall of sentries and spam (or wrenching an aimbot / spamming a single choke point) over and over is enjoyable in the least.

ideally an engie limit of 1 or 2 for all maps. even if i kill a sentry its fully rebuilt within a minute with multiple engineers. before someone cries about 1 or 2 sentries being too little on a ctf map try leaving any class on defense and they will do just fine. heavy is basically a sentry. pyro works inside bases. demo traps and spams. soldier kills. any of those are viable alternatives that dont require an uber to get past.

its more just everyone on brbu seems to be madly in love with playing engie than anything else. every time im on the server now i see 3+ on each team.

[Aerox]

obviously i dont know what im talking about since goldrush and dustbowl are so hugely popular but i dont understand how running into a wall of sentries and spam (or wrenching an aimbot / spamming a single choke point) over and over is enjoyable in the least.

I feel you on that. I rarely play engie because I usually find it incredibly boring.

Which 2 maps on that list I had do you think are the worst for sentry spam, and what 2 five-point maps would you put in to replace them, with the constraint that the download shouldn't be massive and it should play well with both a full and not-full server? You're probably right in that the list needs more 5 point maps, but the only ones I ever end up playing are Well (which I think is kind of boring), Labor (which a number of people have issues with), and Freight (which is on there already), so I don't know much about what other good ones are out there.

[Versus]

I feel you on that. I rarely play engie because I usually find it incredibly boring.

and that's why offensive engi is fun ;D

[Radio Raheem]

Turbine - engie fest like any ctf. tends to basically be one team trapped in their base. however is the best of the stock ctf maps. mach4 2fort etc are much worse.
Dustbowl - 2 eng limit may help this. would at least make it tolerable
Mach 4 - see turbine
Goldrush - same as dustbowl
Labor - not too bad outside of the last point. 1 eng limit would make it playable
Steel - lower the eng limit (2?) and its not so bad.
Gravelpit - good unless again you have 3+ engies. then it sucks
2Fort - garbage and fills the server with the worst players possible. maybe orange maps would bring worse im not sure
Freight - sucks competitively but fine for pubs
Badwater - last point can be turtled hardcore but its a pl map. it comes with the territory
Stag - good. 2 eng limit. pushing second poing against multiple sentries is especially bad on this map

as for 5 point cp maps badlands, granary, well are all solid. when you go for customs youll obviously have a lot less players joining the server. labor and warpath are popular but they both tend to bog down hard at certain points. stag is generally well liked. everyone loves switchback but its a gigantic download.

for ctf maps all of the stock ones suck and i cant really think of a good custom. with an engie limit of 1 ctf maps would be not so bad. geothermal is the only one i actually like.

i would go with this rotation

cp_badlands
cp_granary
cp_gravelpit
cp_stag
cp_freight
ctf_geothermal / ctf_turbine
pl_badwater

throw in a couple more. goldrush, dustbowl, mach4, labor, warpath are the obvious ones but i happen to really hate those maps. science2 isnt bad and i like cp_dryer. tc_meridian is also really really good but noone has ever heard of it. maybe something different like dom_canalzone but that definately needs an engie limit of 1. or blockfort wasnt too bad. ive only played egypt once but it seemed a lot better than dustbowl so maybe that. then again i was an offensive engie and managed to win the game with a sweet sentry so take that with a grain of salt.

arena_lumbaryard
cp_castle3 (castle 4 sucks balls in comparison)
cp_desertfortress
ctf_convoy
ctf_launchzone
pl_hoodoo
cp_broma

are all playable aswell.

comedy option: koth_rainbow

theres also a bunch of new competitive maps in the works which will most likely turn into decent 5 point cps. cp_renosance, cp_follower, cp_yukon (ash ridge), cp_erostion are all good.

in think betas should all be out

[x]

ive only played egypt once but it seemed a lot better than dustbowl so maybe that. then again i was an offensive engie and managed to win the game with a sweet sentry so take that with a grain of salt.

It's worse. Occasional back-caps aside, the map is won or lost solely on spam. This of course means the general populace fucking love it and it fills servers like nobody's business.

cp_erostion

I somehow read this as eroticism. Not sure what to make of that.

[CaffeinePowered]

Engineer cap is set to 4 right now, 2 on 2fort/mach4, I wouldn't see too much of a problem lowing it in general to 3, and it will never go lower than 2 on any map. For a 12v12, if you can't break 2 engineers, you have no business playing on our servers.

If you have a limit of less than 2 you end up with one really shitty person playing engineer.

[Wedge]

cp_egypt is fucking awful and needs to gtfo of our server so bad =<.

[Vlambo]

wasn't there another map in the Scout update? I don't think I've ever seen that

[Wedge]

arena_watchtower?  Which isn't bad, but it is arena.  Which is bad.

[Radio Raheem]

wasn't there another map in the Scout update? I don't think I've ever seen that

cp_junction
its gpit but inside and terrible

[[fr31ns]Karrde]

Guess I'll put in some ideas too.

CP_Dustbowl
CTF_Impact2
pl_badwater
cp_labor
arena_lumberyard
cp_granary
cp_warpath2
pl_goldrush
cp_switchback
cp_steel
cp_freight
arena_watchtower
pl_norad
cp_well

Maybe this with a few alterations.