Students protests in Quebec. What do you think of / know of them?

[Benito Mussolini]

[quote author=Benito link=topic=6363.msg246077#msg246077 date=1337962249]
Higher education is a right.

No, it is not. That is why it is separated from standard education.
In fact, we are already experiencing problems from this line of thinking.
[/quote]

I really mean a right as in opposition to a privilege. Equal access to higher education should be given.
I think the definition of higher education is not exactly the same in Quebec, where becoming a technician requires 3 years of "higher education", 6 to become an engineer (CEGEPs start on 12th grade). From what I read in the academic inflation page, it seems the problem is more with masters and Ph.D.s

[HeK]

Secondary education is actually free here in public schools. That too is a basic right and should be affordable to everyone (just like being healthy is).

As much as I feel that access to health care should be a human right, it nor any access to education is considered a right in Canada.
The Canadian Bill or Rights, Constitution of Canada and the Canadian Human Rights Act make no mention of education (basic or otherwise) or health care.

[A. Crow]

If you're paying attention to reddit, you've already seen this.  

If not, I'll leave it here.  

also,


out-fucking-standing.  The moral code is so fucked up, "do the right thing" is a completely ambiguous solution.  

[Duck, Duck, Goose]

[quote author=Benito link=topic=6363.msg246077#msg246077 date=1337962249]
Secondary education is actually free here in public schools. That too is a basic right and should be affordable to everyone (just like being healthy is).

As much as I feel that access to health care should be a human right, it nor any access to education is considered a right in Canada.
The Canadian Bill or Rights, Constitution of Canada and the Canadian Human Rights Act make no mention of education (basic or otherwise) or health care.

[/quote]Our bureaucratic documents are a little outdated, wouldn't you agree? It's 2012, not 1970. Move along, no need to treat any living person like they are inferior to another.

[StolenToast]

higher education simply unaffordable for a lot of students or start saddling them with very large debt burdens.

Welcome to America! I, like matter11, go to a US school where I pay 3x-5x as much per semester as people in quebec pay in a year (from Crow's link).  Its so expensive that if you are going to college for anything thats not a mathematical, engineering, medical, scientific, economic, or resource based profession your time would be better spent on a job gaining experience.  So honestly I have nothing to say about any of this.  At this moment my government is debating on how to prevent interest rates on federal college loans from doubling in a year.  My opinion in general is that the Canadian government is very citizen-minded and residents of Canadian provinces are extremely lucky to live there, whether they have to pay 2,500 or 3,500 per year.

Also: higher education is not even a privilege.  It is a service provided by private entrepreneurs.  Even so, around here we have state government funded colleges that every citizen IS entitled to attend, full time if they llike, but they still have to compete for seats in classes and pay.

[Eightball]

My only source of information on the matter so far is you guys, and I've got some mixed feelings so far. First, I agree that the actual magnitude of the tuition increase is...minor. An increase of about $325 per year over 5 years? So, someone starting a four-year degree now would pay an extra $3250 at the end of the program? You can earn that plus some change working for a single summer, if you're not picky about where and when you find employment. Taking on that amount in the form of loans (assuming low-interest student loans) means you would be able to pay it off in less than a year following "steady" employment after graduation...well, you can sense my feelings there. In my defense, I attend a private university whose annual cost of attendance exceeds $60000, so I'm not exactly representative of the students that this legislature affects. Was this surprise sprung a little too quickly? Probably. Is a $325 per year increase for 5 years enough to ruin a mentionable portion of student's plans? I doubt it.

A lot of you are discussing whether or not higher education should be a fundamental human right. I'm of the belief that the importance of a college degree (at least, a Bachelor's) is overemphasized, and that a great deal of North American youth [should be] just as well off seeking employment straight off (or doing vocational/trade education) rather than getting that degree. We could argue all day whether it should or shouldn't be one, but I think we can all agree that access to affordable education should be a human right. Which brings us back to the discussion of whether or not these tuition hikes make education unaffordable. I'm still staunchly of the belief that it doesn't.

But I get the feeling that the true meaning of these protests is not really about just the tuition hikes. If these price increases come at a time when the government is suspected of corruption or wanton spending (as Benito and DarkChief have indicated), then god yes, take to the streets. I hope it's the case that the protests are trying to make a point of the wasteful spending. It's the most bulletproof argument they could make.

[Badgerman of DOOM]

KNOWLEDGE

eightball pretty much summed up my feelings

[Chief]

http://www.filibustercartoons.com/index....ec-crisis/

"As I noted in my last essay, the sheer foreignness of the Quebec student crisis, which is so clearly the result of a set of cultural-political understandings completely without equivalent in Anglo-Canada, makes it an episode almost impossible to stir sympathy for in the rest of the country. It has become a localized sideshow rather than a national concern, and despite the interested peering of foreign journalists, the Canadian press has mostly reported on it with vicarious disdain. The overwhelming tone has been one of incredulity."
[...]
"In Quebec, alas, everything is vastly different. The radical presumptions and rhetoric of the 1960s have never been fully rejected, in large part because heavy federal subsidizes have mostly spared the province from the full economic consequences of unrestrained leftism. Society remains organized according to social democratic principles that presume the fundamental legitimacy of tiny, unrepresentative groups like unions and cultural organizations, with their equally unrepresentative, extra-parliamentary tactics of protests, strikes, blockades, and violence regarded as respectable, authoritative acts that deserve to shape the democratic process."

[Black Aspen]

This is where my mixed feelings come from:

The genesis of this massive protest has come from a fairly paltry change in tuition fees (as it would be perceived by the rest of Canada, and certainly the U.S.), which immediately segregates the movement from other current (and former) students who have already paid for their education, or are in the process of doing-so.  Personally, I have little sympathy for anyone fighting that legislature specifically.  There are a lot of issues with the current state of Quebec, and through whatever means, it DOES need fixing, and people ARE going to have to make sacrifices and chip in.

HOWEVER.

I respect the protestors for their determination, and motivations beyond the core issue (the tuition hike).  I'm not familiar with Quebec government outside of Montreal, so I can only speak to that, but as Benito mentioned, the governments within modern Quebec are renowned for their corruption and mismanagement, and I am very happy to see the Quebec population standing up to their government in that regard.  Another aspect of the movement that I can support is that the youth of Quebec are refusing to accept the idea that THEY have to "pick up the tab" for others.  Why is the solution to the budget raising tuition fees, and not, as others here have mentioned, pulling from the coffers of others?  I still support an increase in tuition fees, but why can't there be some give-and-take?  Why can't some other parties chip in as well?  If there is a plan to do this, then the Charest government needs to make this known.  This is what I mean about the stubbornness that both sides have shown, that I mentioned in my previous post.  Some negotiating could go a long way, and from what I was witnessing, it was the STUDENT faction that was looking to talk, and the Charest government that was refusing to listen.  Also, Bill 78 is a god damn joke, and frankly, I find it disgusting.  The Charest government certainly shot them in the foot with that one.  They brought it from a discussion about tuition fees, and made it a discussion about abuse of authority (aaaaaaaaaand look at that!  We bring it on back to the government corruption angle!).

So, as long as this movement keeps itself strapped specifically the tuition angle, they're going to have a real hard time garnering support outside of the student population within Quebec.  They need to get it out there that this is about a lot of other issues (if that's even the case, and all this hasn't just been heaped on by other, idealistic parties...) if they hope the rest of Canada, or beyond, will lend them their sympathy.

[Dr. Zaius]

I have nothing constructive to add, especially after you've all been sage as fuck in here.

I'm of the philosophy that education, educating the human mind (be it for the purpose of career or love of knowledge) should be free. The fact that you have to pay to go somewhere to learn things is absolute fucking nonsense. Yes I know there are a ton of counterarguments that can be brought up about this, but w/e, fuck those.

Keeping knowledge from people by means of money is just as bad as religion. And FUCK religion.

The most depressing thing is that we still are ruled by money. Something that is worth NOTHING, and it dictates how the world operates. Yes we have all these great things, but we live in modernized societies, it's readily available for those who were born into financially stable families. What's to say that other people who weren't brought up in our situation don't deserve it? Simply because they don't have money?

Chances are one of you is going to come back with some 'stop being a melodramatic whiny baby about it and be a man and earn your college degree (to which I'll say right now, don't bother responding; you're not worth my time).

Whatever, I'm off topic and pissed off and sad.
rant over]

bye

[Duck, Duck, Goose]

I have nothing constructive to add, especially after you've all been sage as fuck in here.

I'm of the philosophy that education, educating the human mind (be it for the purpose of career or love of knowledge) should be free. The fact that you have to pay to go somewhere to learn things is absolute fucking nonsense. Yes I know there are a ton of counterarguments that can be brought up about this, but w/e, fuck those.

Keeping knowledge from people by means of money is just as bad as religion. And FUCK religion.

The most depressing thing is that we still are ruled by money. Something that is worth NOTHING, and it dictates how the world operates. Yes we have all these great things, but we live in modernized societies, it's readily available for those who were born into financially stable families. What's to say that other people who weren't brought up in our situation don't deserve it? Simply because they don't have money?

Chances are one of you is going to come back with some 'stop being a melodramatic whiny baby about it and be a man and earn your college degree (to which I'll say right now, don't bother responding; you're not worth my time).

Whatever, I'm off topic and pissed off and sad.
rant over]

bye

This is why it's so important to preserve the internet in it's current state. Freedom of information is a glorious thing.